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Debates Forum

  1. Standard member joneschr
    Some guy
    20 Nov '09 22:17 / 1 edit
    As of today, when my escrow on my home closed, I became a renter again. And I'm actively looking at buying a new house.

    Unfortunately, I'm picky, and I narrowed it down to two choices. One house has some significant downsides not worth mentioning. It's competitor is perfect for my needs in every category except one.

    It has powerlines near the property - probably about 50 feet beyond the fenceline of the property - and maybe 40-50 feet tall.

    The difference between the two houses is striking - the one with the powerlines is clearly worth far more with the exception of the power lines.

    As I start reading about all the debate, I found it's very controversial - tons of studies both proving and disproving that proximity to power lines cause cancer.

    And this article, which alleges that this is nothing more than a somewhat fraudlulent health scare with no merit:

    http://www.quackwatch.org/01QuackeryRelatedTopics/emf.html

    I have a 4 year old, making it a particularly hard decision.

    Anyone have any expertise on this? What are your opinions? If you were me, would you buy the palace with the powerlines, or the junker clear of EM fields.
  2. Standard member uzless
    The So Fist
    20 Nov '09 22:35
    Originally posted by joneschr
    I have a 4 year old, making it a particularly hard decision.

    .
    If you had a 14 year old, would the power lines make any difference to your decision?

    Either you believe power lines cause cancer or you don't. Make your decision accordingly.
  3. Standard member joneschr
    Some guy
    20 Nov '09 22:50
    Well, some of the studies seem to argue that power lines cause leukemia in young children, thus the difference. But yeah, I guess you have a point. Whether power lines are capable of causing any form of cancer is the broader issue.
  4. Standard member uzless
    The So Fist
    21 Nov '09 00:07
    Originally posted by joneschr
    Well, some of the studies seem to argue that power lines cause leukemia in young children, thus the difference. But yeah, I guess you have a point. Whether power lines are capable of causing any form of cancer is the broader issue.
    It's really a simple question.

    You'll never REALLY know if they cause cancer so are you willing to risk it or not? Are you willing to risk your kid dying in order to have a fancier home?

    The choice is yours.
  5. Standard member joneschr
    Some guy
    21 Nov '09 00:26 / 1 edit
    Sure, but there's a risk that I could die in a car crash from a drunk driver every time I get in the car. Yet I drive every day.

    There are "risks" for virtually every activity I perform, every piece of food I eat.

    The question is, should this risk stand out amongst all the other daily risks. Is it significant?
  6. Standard member telerion
    True X X Xian
    21 Nov '09 00:47 / 1 edit
    Originally posted by joneschr
    Sure, but there's a risk that I could die in a car crash from a drunk driver every time I get in the car. Yet I drive every day.

    There are "risks" for virtually every activity I perform, every piece of food I eat.

    The question is, should this risk stand out amongst all the other daily risks. Is it significant?
    Personally I wouldn't let this power line question push me into purchasing a crappy home. Are there any factors at the crappy house that would make the decision even easier like worse schools or more crime? Then you'd just have to weigh the extremely remote risk of power wire cancer versus the more likely event if physical or structural violence.
  7. 21 Nov '09 00:48
    just keep searching. don't take the chance.

    we've been hearing for years how cell phones are safe, evidence for brain tumors is antedoctal, large european studies show no correlation. now all of sudden it's back in the news, long-term cellphone use can cause brain tumors.

    ---

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Power_lines#Health_concerns

    Health concerns
    Main article: Electromagnetic radiation and health

    The preponderance of evidence suggests that the low-power, low-frequency, electromagnetic radiation associated with household current does not constitute a short or long term health hazard. There are statistical correlations between various diseases and living or working near power lines.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electromagnetic_radiation_and_health#Health_effects_of_electric_power_transmission

    Health effects of electric power transmission

    The preponderance of evidence suggests that the low-power, low-frequency, electromagnetic radiation associated with household current does not constitute a short or long term health hazard, and whilst some biophysical mechanisms for the promotion of cancer have been proposed (such as the electric fields around powerlines attracting aerosol pollutants[10][11]), none have been substantiated.[12][13][14][15][16][17] Nevertheless, some research has implicated exposure in a number of adverse health effects. These include, but are not limited to, childhood leukemia,[12] adult leukemia[18], neurodegenerative diseases (such as amyotrophic lateral sclerosis)[19][20][21], miscarriage[22][23][24], and clinical depression.

    .... (more details) ....
  8. 21 Nov '09 00:50
    hope you are searching for houses with zillow.com, redfin.com, etc.

    check out the historical price curves, etc., available on the Local Information tabs in zillow.
  9. 21 Nov '09 00:50
    and DON'T trust industry studies.
  10. Standard member telerion
    True X X Xian
    21 Nov '09 00:51
    Originally posted by zeeblebot
    just keep searching. don't take the chance.

    we've been hearing for years how cell phones are safe, evidence for brain tumors is antedoctal, large european studies show no correlation. now all of sudden it's back in the news, long-term cellphone use can cause brain tumors.

    ---

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Power_lines#Health_concerns

    Health con ...[text shortened]... s)[19][20][21], miscarriage[22][23][24], and clinical depression.

    .... (more details) ....
    From the most trusted source on the internet no less. I'd check those citations carefully against other studies if I were you.
  11. 21 Nov '09 00:57
    Originally posted by telerion
    From the most trusted source on the internet no less. I'd check those citations carefully against other studies if I were you.
    here are the citations for the relevant wikipedia section. on what basis do you mistrust them?

    ---

    #
    # ^ Fews, Peter; Denis Henshaw, Paul Keitch, Julie Close, Richard Wilding (December 1999). "Increased exposure to pollutant aerosols under high voltage power lines". Int J Radiat Biol. 75 (12): 1505–21. doi:10.1080/095530099139115. http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?db=pubmed&cmd=Retrieve&dopt=Abstract&list_uids=10622257.
    # ^ Fews, Peter; Denis Henshaw, Richard Wilding, Paul Keitch (December 1999). "Corona ions from powerlines and increased exposure to pollutant aerosols". Int J Radiat Biol. 75 (12): 1523–31. doi:10.1080/095530099139124. http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?db=pubmed&cmd=Retrieve&dopt=Abstract&list_uids=10622258.
    # ^ a b c "Electromagnetic fields and public health". Fact sheet No. 322. World Health Organization. June 2007. http://www.who.int/mediacentre/factsheets/fs322/en/index.html. Retrieved 2008-01-23. "Thus, on balance, the evidence related to childhood leukaemia is not strong enough to be considered causal. ... A number of other adverse health effects have been studied for possible association with ELF magnetic field exposure. These include other childhood cancers, cancers in adults, depression, suicide, cardiovascular disorders, reproductive dysfunction, developmental disorders, immunological modifications, neurobehavioural effects and neurodegenerative disease. The WHO Task Group concluded that scientific evidence supporting an association between ELF magnetic field exposure and all of these health effects is much weaker than for childhood leukemia. In some instances (i.e., for cardiovascular disease or breast cancer) the evidence suggests that these fields do not cause them."
    # ^ "Electromagnetic fields and public health". http://www.who.int/mediacentre/factsheets/fs296/en/index.html. Retrieved 2007-11-17. WHO factsheet on electromagnetic hypersensitivity
    # ^ "Electric and Magnetic Fields and Public Health". National Policy. American Physical Society. 2005-04-15. http://www.aps.org/policy/statements/05_3.cfm. Retrieved 2008-01-29.
    # ^ "Electric and Magnetic Fields Associated with the Use of Power" (PDF). National Institute of Environmental Health Sciences. 2002-06. http://www.niehs.nih.gov/health/docs/emf-02.pdf. Retrieved 2008-01-29.
    # ^ The International Commission on Non-Ionizing Radiation Protection (2004-08). "ICNIRP Statement Related to the Use of Security and Similar Devices Utilizing Electromagnetic Fields" (PDF). Health Physics 87 (2): 187. doi:10.1097/00004032-200408000-00007. http://www.icnirp.de/documents/EASD.pdf. Retrieved 2008-01-29. "Similarly, there is no convincing evidence for an association with neurologic disease, birth defects, heart disease, or suicide."
    # ^ "H-460.938 Effects of Electric and Magnetic Fields". American Medical Association. http://www.ama-assn.org/ama/pub/category/print/13682.html. Retrieved 2009-01-30. "no scientifically documented health risk has been associated with the usually occurring levels of electromagnetic fields"
    # ^ Tynes, Tore; L Klaeboe, T Haldorsen (May 2003). "Residential and occupational exposure to 50 Hz magnetic fields and malignant melanoma: a population based study". Occup Environ Med 60 (5): 343–7. doi:10.1136/oem.60.5.343. PMID 12709519. http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/sites/entrez?db=pubmed&cmd=Retrieve&dopt=Abstract&list_uids=12709519.
    # ^ Feychting, Maria; Anders Ahlbom, F Jonsson, NL Pederson (July 2003). "Occupational magnetic field exposure and neurodegenerative disease". Epidemiology 14 (4): 413–9. doi:10.1097/01.EDE.0000071409.23291.7b. http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/sites/entrez?db=pubmed&cmd=Retrieve&dopt=Abstract&list_uids=12843764.
    # ^ Hakansson, Niklas; P Gustavsson, Birgitte Floderus, Christof Johanen (July 2003). "Neurodegenerative diseases in welders and other workers exposed to high levels of magnetic fields". Epidemiology 14 (4): 420–6. doi:10.1097/01.EDE.0000078446.76859.c9. http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/sites/entrez?db=pubmed&cmd=Retrieve&dopt=Abstract&list_uids=12843765.
    # ^ Albohm, Anders (2001). "Neurodegenerative diseases, suicide and depressive symptoms in relation to EMF.". Bioelectromagnetics (Suppl 5): S132–43. http://www3.interscience.wiley.com/cgi-bin/abstract/76509952/.
    # ^ Lee, GM; Michael Yost, RR Neutra, L Hristova, RA Hiatt (January 2002). "A nested case-control study of residential and personal magnetic field measures and miscarriages". Epidemiology 13 (1): 21–31. doi:10.1097/00001648-200201000-00005. http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/sites/entrez?Db=pubmed&Cmd=ShowDetailView&TermToSearch=11805582.
    # ^ Li, De-Kun; Roxana Odouli, S Wi, T Janevic, I Golditch, TD Bracken, R Senior, R Rankin, R Iriye (January 2002). "A population-based prospective cohort study of personal exposure to magnetic fields during pregnancy and the risk of miscarriage". Epidemiology 13 (1): 9–20. doi:10.1097/00001648-200201000-00004. http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/sites/entrez?Db=pubmed&Cmd=ShowDetailView&TermToSearch=11805581.
    # ^ Cao, YN; Y Zhang, Y Liu (August 2006). "Effects of exposure to extremely low frequency electromagnetic fields on reproduction of female mice and development of offsprings". Zhonghua Lao Dong Wei Sheng Zhi Ye Bing Za Zhi 24 (8): 468–70. http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/sites/entrez?Db=pubmed&Cmd=ShowDetailView&TermToSearch=16978513.
    # ^ UK National Grid EMF information site
    # ^ See Electric power transmission#Underground transmission for details and references.
    # ^ Focke (2009). "DNA Fragmentation in Human Fibroblasts Under Extremely Low Frequency Electromagnetic Field Exposure". Mutation research. doi:10.1016/j.mrfmmm.2009.10.012. PMID 19896957. edit
    # ^ Linet, M. S.; Martha S. Linet, M.D., Elizabeth E. Hatch, Ph.D., Ruth A. Kleinerman, M.P.H., Leslie L. Robison, Ph.D., (July 1997). "Residential Exposure to Magnetic Fields and Acute Lymphoblastic Leukemia in Children". New England Journal of Medicine 337 (1): 1–8. doi:10.1056/NEJM199707033370101. PMID 9203424. https://content.nejm.org/cgi/content/abstract/337/1/1.
    # ^ Albohm, Anders; Elisabeth Cardis, Adele Green, Martha Linet, David Savitz, Anthony Swerdlow (December 2001). "Review of the Epidemiologic Literature on EMF and Health". Environ Health Perspect. 109 (S6). http://www.ehponline.org/members/2001/suppl-6/911-933ahlbom/ahlbom-full.html.
    # ^ Maslanyj, Myron; Terry Mee, David Renew, J Simpson, P Ansell, Stuart Allen, Eve Roman (March 2007). "Investigation of the sources of residential power frequency magnetic field exposure in the UK Childhood Cancer Study". J. Radiol. Prot. 27 (1): 41–58. doi:10.1088/0952-4746/27/1/002. http://www.iop.org/EJ/abstract/0952-4746/27/1/002/.
    # ^ Draper, Gerald; Tim Vincent, Mary E. Kroll, John Swanson (2005). "Childhood cancer in relation to distance from high voltage power lines in England and Wales: a case-control study". BMJ 330 (330): 1290. doi:10.1136/bmj.330.7503.1290. PMID 15933351. http://www.bmj.com/cgi/content/abstract/330/7503/1290.
    # ^ Fews, Peter; Denis Henshaw, Paul Keitch, Julie Close, Richard Wilding (December 1999). "Increased exposure to pollutant aerosols under high voltage power lines". Int J Radiat Biol. 75 (12): 1505–21. doi:10.1080/095530099139115. http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?db=pubmed&cmd=Retrieve&dopt=Abstract&list_uids=10622257.
    # ^ Fews, Peter; Denis Henshaw, Richard Wilding, Paul Keitch (December 1999). "Corona ions from powerlines and increased exposure to pollutant aerosols". Int J Radiat Biol. 75 (12): 1523–31. doi:10.1080/095530099139124. http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?db=pubmed&cmd=Retrieve&dopt=Abstract&list_uids=10622258.
    # ^ "Electromagnetic fields and public health: extremely low frequency fields and cancer". Fact sheet No. 263. World Health Organization. October 2001. http://www.who.int/mediacentre/factsheets/fs263/en. Retrieved 2008-01-23.
    # ^ Lakshmikumar, S.T., 2009, "Power Line Panic and Mobile Mania", Skeptical Inquirer, Volume 33, Issue 5, Pg. 35
    # ^ "SAGE first interim assessment: Power Lines and Property, Wiring in Homes, and Electrical Equipment in Homes"
  12. 21 Nov '09 00:58
    especially as point and counterpoint references are given?
  13. Standard member telerion
    True X X Xian
    21 Nov '09 01:55
    Originally posted by zeeblebot
    especially as point and counterpoint references are given?
    I warned that he should check the citations. I didn't say that I had any particular problems with one of them. But then why am I even deigning to interact with you?
  14. Donation rwingett
    Ming the Merciless
    21 Nov '09 02:04
    Originally posted by joneschr
    As of today, when my escrow on my home closed, I became a renter again. And I'm actively looking at buying a new house.

    Unfortunately, I'm picky, and I narrowed it down to two choices. One house has some significant downsides not worth mentioning. It's competitor is perfect for my needs in every category except one.

    It has powerlines near the prope ...[text shortened]... you were me, would you buy the palace with the powerlines, or the junker clear of EM fields.
    If you don't buy the house will you and your child become immortal? No? Then you're both going to die anyway from one thing or another. So buy the house.
  15. 21 Nov '09 04:09
    Originally posted by telerion
    I warned that he should check the citations. I didn't say that I had any particular problems with one of them. But then why am I even deigning to interact with you?
    (smoooooooch)