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Debates Forum

  1. Standard member sh76
    Civis Americanus Sum
    09 Aug '09 15:25 / 2 edits
    Okay; in the name of trying to be an informed citizen, I'm taking my Sunday morning (after a quick workout and breakfast date with the kids) to see if I can read as much as I can of the new proposed "Obamacare" bill. I'll probably never get through the whole thing, but I'll see if I can get through some of it...

    http://www.govtrack.us/congress/billtext.xpd?bill=h111-3200

    One of the things we've heard over and over about this bill is that Americans satisfied with their current health insurance will have the option of simply keeping their current insurance.

    See, e.g.,

    http://blogs.abcnews.com/politicalpunch/2009/07/president-obama-continues-questionable-you-can-keep-your-health-care-promise.html

    http://whatcomforum.blogspot.com/2009/07/key-provisions-of-hr3200.html

    http://voices.washingtonpost.com/health-care-reform/2009/07/will_you_be_able_to_keep_your.html

    However, let's look at the relevant section of HR 3200:

    SEC. 102. PROTECTING THE CHOICE TO KEEP CURRENT COVERAGE.

    (a) Grandfathered Health Insurance Coverage Defined- Subject to the succeeding provisions of this section, for purposes of establishing acceptable coverage under this division, the term ‘grandfathered health insurance coverage’ means individual health insurance coverage that is offered and in force and effect before the first day of Y1 if the following conditions are met:

    (1) LIMITATION ON NEW ENROLLMENT-

    (A) IN GENERAL- Except as provided in this paragraph, the individual health insurance issuer offering such coverage does not enroll any individual in such coverage if the first effective date of coverage is on or after the first day of Y1.

    (B) DEPENDENT COVERAGE PERMITTED- Subparagraph (A) shall not affect the subsequent enrollment of a dependent of an individual who is covered as of such first day.

    (2) LIMITATION ON CHANGES IN TERMS OR CONDITIONS- Subject to paragraph (3) and except as required by law, the issuer does not change any of its terms or conditions, including benefits and cost-sharing, from those in effect as of the day before the first day of Y1.

    (3) RESTRICTIONS ON PREMIUM INCREASES- The issuer cannot vary the percentage increase in the premium for a risk group of enrollees in specific grandfathered health insurance coverage without changing the premium for all enrollees in the same risk group at the same rate, as specified by the Commissioner.

    -snip-

    (c) Limitation on Individual Health Insurance Coverage-

    (1) IN GENERAL- Individual health insurance coverage that is not grandfathered health insurance coverage under subsection (a) may only be offered on or after the first day of Y1 as an Exchange-participating health benefits plan.


    In essence, this says that you can keep your current insurance is and only as long as "the issuer does not change any of its terms or conditions" of the policy and does change the premiums except as per a specific allowable formula.

    Market conditions change. Insurance companies tweak plans all the time, as a matter of course. Under this bill, any change at all in any such policy will invalidate it. Competition for these pre-existing policies will be non-existent as no private insurer may offer a new non-qualifying insurance plan that is not grandfathered.

    Of course, this provision could be adjusted before anything passes, but this is how the bill stands, as of now.

    Question: Is the President being somewhat less than forthcoming when he promises, over and over again, that you will be able to keep your current insurance? I understand it's technically accurate. But doesn't honesty demand a caveat such as; "but, oh, by the way, we're phasing out the private insurance plans that you have now."?
  2. 09 Aug '09 16:42 / 1 edit
    I interpret this a bit differently. HR 3200 isn't just just a bill introducing a new healthcare program, it is also healthcare *reform*. It introduces tighter healcare recipient protections. Obviously the latter would affect current healthcare providers, but that's what it's meant to do.

    The grandfather clause gives providers a grace period to make adjustments with those they are currently covering. In other words it gives them a block of time where they do not have to adhere to certain, new requirements with preexisting recipients of their program.

    I'm not addressing any criticisms against certain provisions in the bill. I'm just disagreeing that it's intended to be a "back door" Canadian style universal healthcare.

    BTW, a very fair point to bring up, as I freely admit the wording does raise an eyebrow. For me it's refreshing to be challenged with truthful and well thought concerns, not the blatent falsehoods and hysteria that has been flying.
  3. 09 Aug '09 18:01
    it looks like you get to keep your current insurance grandfathered as long as you don't switch plans or the insurer doesn't change the plan.

    well, you asked for the right to keep your current insurance! you got it!
  4. 09 Aug '09 18:37
    Originally posted by zeeblebot
    it looks like you get to keep your current insurance grandfathered as long as you don't switch plans or the insurer doesn't change the plan.

    well, you asked for the right to keep your current insurance! you got it!
    So in time all current insurance will fade out. This is the honesty we can expect for the whole plan I am sure.
  5. 09 Aug '09 18:40
    if the Townhall outcries were composed mostly of insurance agents, wouldn't they still be valid?
  6. 09 Aug '09 18:54 / 1 edit
    Originally posted by joe beyser
    So in time all current insurance will fade out. This is the honesty we can expect for the whole plan I am sure.
    Well at least there is no question now from anyone regarding governmnet eventually taking over ALL health insurance.

    Now the only question is, do you like it?

    If you disagree, however, wiht government taking over your health care, could you do us all a favor? Could you just shut up and get out of the all inclusive President as he once and for all shatters devisiveness in this country bu ramming his agenda down our throats. In addition, not attending town hall meetings and tea parties is also a plus. As I said, please stand aside and let these people do what they will do with or without you, won't you?
  7. 09 Aug '09 18:58 / 1 edit
    Originally posted by zeeblebot
    if the Townhall outcries were composed mostly of insurance agents, wouldn't they still be valid?
    Nope, they all are a bunch of right winged brain washed fanatics who were gathered and transported by Rush LImbaugh himself. The rage in the citizens faces are nothing more than a result of hours upon hours of acting lessons sponsered by the powers that be in the Republican party. In addition, the program has been such a success that a few of the actors have even been nominated by the liberals in Hollywood to possible recieve an award winning Emmy
  8. 09 Aug '09 19:02
    Originally posted by whodey
    Well at least there is no question now from anyone regarding governmnet eventually taking over ALL health insurance.

    Now the only question is, do you like it?

    If you disagree, however, wiht government taking over your health care, could you do us all a favor? Could you just shut up and get out of the all inclusive President as he once and for all shatt ...[text shortened]... d, please stand aside and let these people do what they will do with or without you, won't you?
    Whodey are you OK? I am just guessing you wrote that really fast. It is going to happen as sure as the gal on the video you posted really meant socialism. It may be short lived though as my company and I am sure many others will close their doors. Get ready for martial law.
  9. 09 Aug '09 19:03 / 1 edit
    Originally posted by sh76
    Okay; in the name of trying to be an informed citizen, I'm taking my Sunday morning (after a quick workout and breakfast date with the kids) to see if I can read as much as I can of the new proposed "Obamacare" bill. I'll probably never get through the whole thing, but I'll see if I can get through some of it...

    http://www.govtrack.us/congress/billtext.xpd?b oh, by the way, we're phasing out the private insurance plans that you have now."?
    Just so you know, we appreciate your efforts. I would req you if I could but I am nothing more than a nontaxing dead beat of this site. :'(
  10. 09 Aug '09 19:05 / 7 edits
    Originally posted by joe beyser
    Whodey are you OK? I am just guessing you wrote that really fast. It is going to happen as sure as the gal on the video you posted really meant socialism. It may be short lived though as my company and I am sure many others will close their doors. Get ready for martial law.
    Am I OK? Well I suppose it depends on who you ask. If you ask people who disagree with me I'm crazy. However, I am sure king Obama has placed in his new health care plan a program to help the "crazies" like me. In fact, I think on page 22,462,434,566,221,345 of the proposed legislation there is put in place "re-education" classees so as to purify me of my conservative stink'in think'in!! IT is then, and only then, can I possibly be "cured". Perhaps sh76 would be so kind as to take the next two years out of his life reading it and getting back to us regarding how this program acutally works? Of course, if this does not work they can always take me in the woods and shoot me. After all, if the classes don't work what hope is there for me? It would be just like shooting a horse with a broken leg at that point. Although it may seem cruel, it is done ultimately in the name of compassion. After all, we all know the progressives have a patten on compassion.

    Once again, we are all counting on you sh76!! Let me know if there is hope for me.
  11. 09 Aug '09 19:09
    Originally posted by whodey
    Am I OK? Well I suppose it depends on who you ask. If you ask people who disagree with me I'm crazy. However, I am sure king Obama has placed in his new health care plan a program to help the "crazies" like me. In fact, I think on page 22,462,434,566,221,345 of the proposed legislation there is put in place "re-education" classees so as to purify me of my ...[text shortened]... ack to us regarding how this program acutally works?

    We are all counting on you sh76!!
    Save me a seat will ya?
  12. 09 Aug '09 19:37
    Originally posted by sh76
    [b]Okay; in the name of trying to be an informed citizen, I'm taking my Sunday morning (after a quick workout and breakfast date with the kids) to see if I can read as much as I can of the new proposed "Obamacare" bill. I'll probably never get through the whole thing, but I'll see if I can get through some of it...
    I hope you can read fast. I fear that in the next two to three months it will all be over!! Of course, if it were up to Obama and company, it would have already been passed.
  13. 09 Aug '09 19:38
    Originally posted by joe beyser
    Save me a seat will ya?
    One seat on whodey"s crazy train has been reserved. Welcome aboard!!
  14. Standard member sh76
    Civis Americanus Sum
    09 Aug '09 19:41 / 1 edit
    Originally posted by whodey
    Am I OK? Well I suppose it depends on who you ask. If you ask people who disagree with me I'm crazy. However, I am sure king Obama has placed in his new health care plan a program to help the "crazies" like me. In fact, I think on page 22,462,434,566,221,345 of the proposed legislation there is put in place "re-education" classees so as to purify me of my

    Once again, we are all counting on you sh76!! Let me know if there is hope for me.
    Now that you mention it, on page 846, there's a strange provision that provides that someone named "whodey" is to be relocated to "a camp 100 miles northwest of Fort Smith" for "purging of his unhealthful tendencies to disagree with the President."

    I thought that was an odd provision; but hey, Number 12 looks just like you...
  15. 09 Aug '09 19:45
    Originally posted by sh76
    Now that you mention it, on page 846, there's a strange provision that provides that someone named "whodey" is to be relocated to "a camp 100 miles northwest of Fort Smith" for "purging of his unhealthful tendencies to disagree with the President."

    I thought that was an odd provision; but hey, Number 12 looks just like you...
    Hey um I can't get the site to work with my computer but did they say anything about a fema coffin for me? If so I would kinda like to pick it out myself.