11 Jan 05
Greyeyesofsorrow:
"Besides isnt humanity all about freedom and isnt religion all about restricting that freedom?
Nóóóóóóó .....
Isn't that one of the reasons why people dislike religion nowadays ? Religion is there to restrict your freedom ?
My answer to that question is "To the contrary"
Isn't there written: "The Truth will set you free"?
What is your comment on how the Truth will set you free. What Truth would that be ? ... and how would it set you free ?
11 Jan 05
Originally posted by ivanhoeOne outlook on religion and freedom is to talk about 'physical freedom' and 'spiritual freedom'.
Greyeyesofsorrow:
"Besides isnt humanity all about freedom and isnt religion all about restricting that freedom?
Nóóóóóóó .....
Isn't that one of the reasons why people dislike religion nowadays ? Religion is there to restrict your freedom ?
My answer to that question is "To the contrary"
Isn't there written: "The Truth will set you f ...[text shortened]... how the Truth will set you free. What Truth would that be ? ... and how would it set you free ?
Physical freedom means that you can do what you want to do, without being constrained by laws, social pressures, lack of resources etc.
Spiritual freedom means that the 'higher' parts of the mind (sometimes seen as the intellect, other times as a person's essential character or 'soul'😉 are free from being tugged about by thoughts, instincts and emotions which it feels are undesirable.
Most religions will thus claim to increase spiritual freedom, even if the organised versions may reduce physical freedom. I'm not particularly convinced by this, but there is certainly something to be said for developing greater awareness and discipline of one's thoughts and emotions, and people who are unable to do so will rightly feel 'trapped' by whatever goes on in their head that they don't like, whether it's manic depression or an inability to understand novel concepts.
11 Jan 05
In order to experience freedom, you must sense the restrictions. In a society where freedom is the norm, and enjoyed by all, the concept of freedom cannot exist.
The ultimate freedom of the sort religion offers required the invention of hell and eternal damnation. Christianity acquired the patent for the invention of hell sometime in the Middle Ages. Christians have been peddling freedom ever since.
Many American Indians did not know they lacked freedom until Christians drove them off their lands and killed their babies. Some didn't even know it was their land until it was taken from them.
11 Jan 05
Originally posted by ivanhoeUnfortunately Ivanhoe, freedom and religion don't play well together. It's one of the reasons why the framers of the Constitution tried so hard to keep them on separate playgrounds.
Greyeyesofsorrow:
"Besides isnt humanity all about freedom and isnt religion all about restricting that freedom?
Nóóóóóóó .....
Isn't that one of the reasons why people dislike religion nowadays ? Religion is there to restrict your freedom ?
My answer to that question is "To the contrary"
Isn't there written: "The Truth will set you f ...[text shortened]... how the Truth will set you free. What Truth would that be ? ... and how would it set you free ?
12 Jan 05
Originally posted by ivanhoeI am reading a book called Anatomy of a lie by Diane M. Komp, M.D.
Greyeyesofsorrow:
"Besides isnt humanity all about freedom and isnt religion all about restricting that freedom?
Nóóóóóóó .....
Isn't that one of the reasons why people dislike religion nowadays ? Religion is there to restrict your freedom ?
My answer to that question is "To the contrary"
Isn't there written: "The Truth will set you f ...[text shortened]... how the Truth will set you free. What Truth would that be ? ... and how would it set you free ?
A quote from it:
The truth makes us free but first it makes us miserable. (Sandra Wilson, Released From Shame.
It starts of talking about a man in the Civil War in Prison not wanting to lie to a prisoner guard of the rebels to escape. He would rather kill the guy because he is against God's cause of freedom.
Another quote page 20 .....God, who can justly take a life, cannot lie.
31 Jan 05
Originally posted by ivanhoeActually, Jesus said something like "know the Truth and it will set you free"
Greyeyesofsorrow:
"Besides isnt humanity all about freedom and isnt religion all about restricting that freedom?
Nóóóóóóó .....
Isn't that one of the reasons why people dislike religion nowadays ? Religion is there to restrict your freedom ?
My answer to that question is "To the contrary"
Isn't there written: "The Truth will set you f ...[text shortened]... how the Truth will set you free. What Truth would that be ? ... and how would it set you free ?
31 Jan 05
Originally posted by ivanhoeI would say a good religion shouldn't restrict your freedom, but it is certain that nowdays the Church, as any other institution is trying to do this. Everyone who's saying "do this", "don't do that" is trying to restrict your freedom. Let them do this, they are free to do it...
Greyeyesofsorrow:
"
Isn't that one of the reasons why people dislike religion nowadays ? Religion is there to restrict your freedom ? "
There is a law in our Universe that sais "Do whatever you want, but know that you are responsable for your actions!"
31 Jan 05
Originally posted by ivanhoeThe religion I grew up in restricted the right to smoke, drink and curse. From what I have read on these forum pages, Ivanhoe's religion doesn't restrict the third item (at least) on my list.
Isn't that one of the reasons why people dislike religion nowadays ? Religion is there to restrict your freedom ?
My answer to that question is "To the contrary"
😉
31 Jan 05
Originally posted by AcolyteI would tend to go along with that separation, but maybe with a different emphasis.
One outlook on religion and freedom is to talk about 'physical freedom' and 'spiritual freedom'.
Physical freedom means that you can do what you want to do, without being constrained by laws, social pressures, lack of resources etc.
Spiritual freedom means that the 'higher' parts of the mind (sometimes seen as the intellect, other times as a pers ...[text shortened]... ee from being tugged about by thoughts, instincts and emotions which it feels are undesirable.
Let's say that under current liberal governments we are free to do pretty much anything, but are still in practice unable to do what we want due to lack of resources. For example, I do not have the resources to buy my own aeroplane, although I would very much like to do so. So, I am no longer "free" to do that.
However, if we look at those members of society who do not have those constraints, i.e. the filthy rich, then one would expect that one would find the most happiness amongst the upper 0,01% (say) of the population. Yet, many surveys show that that is not the case. (e.g. see the Readers Digest of two months ago).
Now isn't that a strange thing? People that are free to buy, own and do anything their heart desires should be the happiest peole on earth! In rich California, the Hollywood population is arguably the wealthiest, and should ipso facto be the happiest.......
So my thesis is that physical "freedom" is not a fraction as important as "Spiritual" freedom: the quality that a person has to be the master, and not the slave, of his/her own emotions and drives.
If "religion" (and this is a particularly bad generalisation) strives to set boundaries to that, then it does it to achieve true inner, spiritual, freedom.
in peace
CJ