Debates Forum

Debates Forum

  1. Zugzwang
    Joined
    08 Jun '07
    Moves
    2120
    22 Feb '21 19:084 edits
    https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2021/feb/22/i-was-on-the-whos-covid-mission-to-china-heres-what-we-found

    "I was on the WHO's Covid mission to China, here's what we found.
    No, it didn’t originate in Wuhan’s wet market, but it could have been spread by frozen food."
    --Dominic Dwyer

    "I was the Australian representative on the international World Health
    Organization’s (WHO) investigation into the origins of the Sars-CoV-2 virus.

    Much has been said of the politics surrounding the mission to
    investigate the viral origins of Covid-19. So it’s easy to forget that
    behind these investigations are real people."

    It's easier for many Westerners to 'forget' that Chinese are 'real people' too.

    "We talked to our Chinese counterparts – scientists, epidemiologists,
    doctors – over the four weeks the WHO mission was in China.
    We were in meetings with them for up to 15 hours a day, so we
    became colleagues, even friends. This allowed us to build respect
    and trust in a way you couldn’t necessarily do via Zoom or email."

    Evidently, most of WHO's Western scientists have NOT concluded
    (in contrast to much Western media) that the Chinese scientists
    are shameless liars determined to cover up Covid-19's Chinese origins.

    "Our investigations concluded the virus was most likely of animal origin.
    It probably crossed over to humans from bats, via an as-yet-unknown
    intermediary animal, at an unknown location. Such “zoonotic” diseases
    have triggered pandemics before. But we are still working to
    confirm the exact chain of events that led to the current pandemic.
    Sampling of bats in Hubei province and wildlife across China has
    revealed no Sars-CoV-2 to date.

    We visited the now-closed Wuhan wet market which, in the early
    days of the pandemic, was blamed as the source of the virus.
    Some stalls at the market sold “domesticated” wildlife products.
    These are animals raised for food, such as bamboo rats, civets and ferret badgers.
    There is also evidence some domesticated wildlife may be susceptible
    to Sars-CoV-2. However, none of the animal products sampled after
    the market’s closure tested positive for Sars-CoV-2.
    After Covid-19, China brought in new regulations for the trade and
    consumption of wild animals.

    We also know not all of those first 174 early Covid-19 cases visited
    the market, including the man who was diagnosed in December 2019
    with the earliest onset date.

    However, when we visited the closed market, it’s easy to see how an
    infection might have spread there. When it was open, there would
    have been about 10,000 people visiting a day, in close proximity,
    with poor ventilation and drainage.

    There’s also genetic evidence generated during the mission for a
    transmission cluster there as viral sequences from several of the
    market cases were identical. However, there was some diversity in
    other viral sequences, implying other unknown or unsampled
    chains of transmission.

    A summary of modelling studies of the time to the most recent
    common ancestor of Sars-CoV-2 sequences estimated the start of
    the pandemic between mid-November and early December.
    There are also publications suggesting Sars-CoV-2 circulation in
    various countries earlier than the first case in Wuhan, although
    these require confirmation.

    Then there was the “cold chain” hypothesis. This is the idea the virus
    might have originated from elsewhere via the farming, catching,
    processing, transporting, refrigeration or freezing of food.
    Was that food ice-cream, fish, wildlife meat? We don’t know.
    It’s unproven that this triggered the origin of the virus itself.
    But to what extent did it contribute to its spread? Again, we don’t know.

    Several “cold chain” products present in the Wuhan market were
    not tested for the virus. Environmental sampling in the market showed
    viral surface contamination. This may indicate the introduction of
    Sars-CoV-2 through infected people, or contaminated animal
    products and “cold chain” products. Investigation of “cold chain”
    products and virus survival at low temperatures is still under way.

    *The market in Wuhan, in the end, was more of an amplifying event
    rather than necessarily a true ground zero. So we need to look
    elsewhere for the viral origins.*

    The most politically sensitive option we looked at was the virus escaping
    from a laboratory. We concluded this was extremely unlikely.
    We visited the Wuhan Institute of Virology, which is an impressive
    research facility, and looks to be run well, with due regard to staff health.

    We spoke to the scientists there. We heard that scientists’ blood samples,
    which are routinely taken and stored, were tested for signs they had
    been infected. No evidence of antibodies to the coronavirus was found.
    We looked at their biosecurity audits. No evidence.

    We looked at the closest virus to Sars-CoV-2 they were working on
    – the virus RaTG13 – which had been detected in caves in southern
    China where some miners had died seven years previously.
    But all the scientists had was a genetic sequence for this virus.
    They hadn’t managed to grow it in culture. While viruses certainly do
    escape from laboratories, this is rare. So we concluded it was extremely
    unlikely this had happened in Wuhan."

    "The clinical epidemiology group alone looked at China’s records
    of 76,000 episodes from more than 200 institutions of anything that
    could have resembled Covid-19 – such as influenza-like illnesses,
    pneumonia and other respiratory illnesses. They found no clear
    evidence of substantial circulation of Covid-19 in Wuhan during
    the latter part of 2019 before the first case.

    Our mission to China was only phase 1. We are due to publish our
    official report in the coming weeks. Investigators will also look further
    afield for data, to investigate evidence the virus was circulating in
    Europe, for instance, earlier in 2019. Investigators will continue to
    test wildlife and other animals in the region for signs of the virus."

    To sum up (with slight oversimplifications):
    1) Covid-19's origins remain unknown.
    2) Covid-19 did not escape from a lab.
    3) Covid-19 might have spread at Wuhan's 'wet market', but it not start there.

    These conclusions contradict the most popular Western media and political
    narratives that Covid-19 definitely started at Wuhan's 'wet market'.
  2. Joined
    05 Nov '06
    Moves
    105944
    22 Feb '21 19:13
    @duchess64 said
    https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2021/feb/22/i-was-on-the-whos-covid-mission-to-china-heres-what-we-found

    "I was on the WHO's Covid mission to China, here's what we found.
    No, it didn’t originate in Wuhan’s wet market, but it could have been spread by frozen food."
    --Dominic Dwyer

    "I was the Australian representative on the international World Health
    Org ...[text shortened]... the most popular Western media narratives that
    Covid-19 definitely started at Wuhan's 'wet market'.
    china destroyed evidence before who got there. who lied for china.

    just trying to keep the truth real
  3. Zugzwang
    Joined
    08 Jun '07
    Moves
    2120
    22 Feb '21 19:161 edit
    @mott-the-hoople said
    china destroyed evidence before who got there. who lied for china.

    just trying to keep the truth real
    Mott-the-Hoople's hateful anti-Chinese racism is eternal.

    "We talked to our Chinese counterparts – scientists, epidemiologists,
    doctors – over the four weeks the WHO mission was in China.
    We were in meetings with them for up to 15 hours a day, so we
    became colleagues, even friends. This allowed us to build respect
    and trust in a way you couldn’t necessarily do via Zoom or email."

    Evidently, most of WHO's Western scientists have NOT concluded
    (in contrast to much Western media) that the Chinese scientists
    are shameless liars determined to cover up Covid-19's Chinese origins.

    Does Mott-the-Hoople believe that all the Chinese scientists should receive awards for acting?

    Many Westerners here will continue to follow their usual prejudices rather than scientific findings.
  4. Subscribershavixmir
    Guppy poo
    Sewers of Holland
    Joined
    31 Jan '04
    Moves
    69366
    23 Feb '21 04:46
    @duchess64 said
    https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2021/feb/22/i-was-on-the-whos-covid-mission-to-china-heres-what-we-found

    "I was on the WHO's Covid mission to China, here's what we found.
    No, it didn’t originate in Wuhan’s wet market, but it could have been spread by frozen food."
    --Dominic Dwyer

    "I was the Australian representative on the international World Health
    Org ...[text shortened]... r Western media and political
    narratives that Covid-19 definitely started at Wuhan's 'wet market'.
    A Dutch researcher (Koopmans) is part if the research team. I’ve been following it closely.
    Interesting stuff.

    I notice the Guardian didn’t mention the Chinese contraints on the team (and their Chinese counter-parts), making the research more difficult.

    The Dutch media does:
    https://www.parool.nl/wereld/who-missie-lijkt-uit-te-draaien-op-publicitaire-overwinning-voor-china~b370c194/

    What I find most interesting is two-fold:

    - they’re almost certain the virus came from bats. Surely that’s too generic and they have to know which species it came from (making at least a reasonable locating possible).

    - they don’t know what animal was the inbetween host. They admit there’s a chance it was bat-on-human, but still consider this highly unlikely. You would think that it wasn’t that difficult to find out.

    On the sarcasm note... it’s great they’ve discovered that wet markets, carnival, apre-skiing and public transport are great occasions for spreading a virus.

    Who’d a thunk it?
  5. Subscriberdivegeester
    3D thinking
    Mutara Nebula
    Joined
    16 Feb '08
    Moves
    97136
    23 Feb '21 07:18
    @duchess64 said
    It's easier for many Westerners to 'forget' that Chinese are 'real people' too.
    You seem paranoid about all this to me. I love Chinese people.

    I don’t like you very much though. I think you harbour some poisonous malignant narcissistic personality traits and it is the manifestation of these which draws you a lot of flack in this forum.

    In real life you’re probably, hopefully a more pleasant and good natured person who likes socialising, conversation and kittens.
  6. Joined
    13 Feb '21
    Moves
    659
    23 Feb '21 07:22
    No, I'm pretty sure she is exactly the same as we see her now.
  7. Zugzwang
    Joined
    08 Jun '07
    Moves
    2120
    23 Feb '21 08:29
    @divegeester said
    You seem paranoid about all this to me. I love Chinese people.

    I don’t like you very much though. I think you harbour some poisonous malignant narcissistic personality traits and it is the manifestation of these which draws you a lot of flack in this forum.

    In real life you’re probably, hopefully a more pleasant and good natured person who likes socialising, conversation and kittens.
    Divegeester has shown that he clings to racist stereotypes (which tend to be wildly inaccurate) of Chinese.
    In Western pop culture, Chinese are nearly always presented as narrow stereotypes.
    This deeply influences how most Westerners perceive and treat real (diverse) Chinese.

    South Africa's apartheid government professed to love black people and do its best to help them.
  8. Zugzwang
    Joined
    08 Jun '07
    Moves
    2120
    23 Feb '21 08:34
    @shavixmir said
    A Dutch researcher (Koopmans) is part if the research team. I’ve been following it closely.
    Interesting stuff.

    I notice the Guardian didn’t mention the Chinese contraints on the team (and their Chinese counter-parts), making the research more difficult.

    The Dutch media does:
    https://www.parool.nl/wereld/who-missie-lijkt-uit-te-draaien-op-publicitaire-overwinning-vo ...[text shortened]... al, apre-skiing and public transport are great occasions for spreading a virus.

    Who’d a thunk it?
    US media (such as the 'New York Times' ) like to cherry-pick a Western scientist who's
    most critical of China and pretend that he must represent all Western scientists.

    But some Western scientists (such as Peter Daszak (UK)) have strongly disputed
    some anti-Chinese claims in Western media. Peter Daszak has stated that he's
    quite satisfied with the cooperation that he has received from Chinese scientists.
    Before Covid-19 emerged, he was a friend of Shi Zhengli at the Wuhan Institute of Virology.
  9. SubscriberEarl of Trumps
    Pawn Whisperer
    My Kingdom fora Pawn
    Joined
    09 Jan '19
    Moves
    8891
    23 Feb '21 08:57
    If China is trying to hide the origin, WHO will never find it.
  10. Subscribershavixmir
    Guppy poo
    Sewers of Holland
    Joined
    31 Jan '04
    Moves
    69366
    23 Feb '21 10:47
    @duchess64 said
    US media (such as the 'New York Times' ) like to cherry-pick a Western scientist who's
    most critical of China and pretend that he must represent all Western scientists.

    But some Western scientists (such as Peter Daszak (UK)) have strongly disputed
    some anti-Chinese claims in Western media. Peter Daszak has stated that he's
    quite satisfied with the cooperation that he ...[text shortened]... ntists.
    Before Covid-19 emerged, he was a friend of Shi Zhengli at the Wuhan Institute of Virology.
    I didn’t hear anyone on the research team being critical of the Chinese scientists.

    A lot were very critical of the Chinese government and it trying to obstruct the research and influence its outcome.
  11. Subscriberdivegeester
    3D thinking
    Mutara Nebula
    Joined
    16 Feb '08
    Moves
    97136
    24 Feb '21 05:27
    @duchess64 said
    Divegeester has shown that he clings to racist stereotypes (which tend to be wildly inaccurate) of Chinese.
    In Western pop culture, Chinese are nearly always presented as narrow stereotypes.
    This deeply influences how most Westerners perceive and treat real (diverse) Chinese.

    South Africa's apartheid government professed to love black people and do its best to help them.
    As usual you are totally wrong.
  12. Joined
    13 Feb '21
    Moves
    659
    24 Feb '21 05:30
    Anyone who denies China is responsible is the typical anti blame liberal pansy.

    If CNN reported some white dude created covid y'all would believe it. 🙄
  13. Subscribershavixmir
    Guppy poo
    Sewers of Holland
    Joined
    31 Jan '04
    Moves
    69366
    24 Feb '21 05:48
    @phil-a-dork said
    Anyone who denies China is responsible is the typical anti blame liberal pansy.

    If CNN reported some white dude created covid y'all would believe it. 🙄
    No they are not.
    No we wouldn’t.

    You racist moron.
  14. Zugzwang
    Joined
    08 Jun '07
    Moves
    2120
    24 Feb '21 06:472 edits
    @shavixmir said
    I didn’t hear anyone on the research team being critical of the Chinese scientists.

    A lot were very critical of the Chinese government and it trying to obstruct the research and influence its outcome.
    It's easy for Western scientists to get 'brownie points' from their governments by bashing China.
    Peter Daszak (a British scientist based in the USA), who was in Wuhan, strongly disagrees.
    Indeed, he has criticized the US government for attempting to politicize the WHO investigation.

    https://apnews.com/article/china-granted-who-full-access-wuhan-52dae25c21db7c80c404251e481f88bc

    "AP Interview: China granted WHO team full access in Wuhan"

    "A member of the World Health Organization expert team investigating the origins
    of the coronavirus in Wuhan said the Chinese side granted full access to all sites and
    personnel they requested — a level of openness that even he hadn’t expected.

    Peter Daszak told The Associated Press on Friday that team members had submitted a deeply
    considered list of places and people to include in their investigation and that no objections were raised.
    “We were asked where we wanted to go. We gave our hosts a list ... and you can
    see from where we’ve been, we’ve been to all the key places,” Daszak said. "

    "Daszak had high praise for Chinese experts, who had been preparing for the visit
    for months, particularly deputy director of the Wuhan Institute of Virology, Shi Zhengli,
    with whom he worked to track down the origins of sever acute respiratory
    syndrome, or SARS, that originated in China and led to the 2003 outbreak."

    "Daszak said the team was also given wide access when visiting hospitals that
    treated patients in the initial outbreak at the end of 2019 and beginning of 2020.
    “To meet the first clinicians who took in the first patients with COVID, that’s incredible ...
    that you can talk to that person who dealt with that first case and ask her what
    she saw and ask questions,” Daszak said.

    The same level of access was given at the Huanan Seafood Market that was linked
    to early case clusters, he said. That included meeting with vendors and market
    managers and touring the market with those who did the original environmental
    swabbing that produced signs of the virus even after the market had been closed down.
    “So this is an in-depth, deep understanding of the sites and the people who were involved,” Daszak said."
  15. Subscribershavixmir
    Guppy poo
    Sewers of Holland
    Joined
    31 Jan '04
    Moves
    69366
    24 Feb '21 07:08
    @duchess64 said
    It's easy for Western scientists to get 'brownie points' from their governments by bashing China.
    Peter Daszak (a British scientist based in the USA), who was in Wuhan, strongly disagrees.
    Indeed, he has criticized the US government for attempting to politicize the WHO investigation.

    https://apnews.com/article/china-granted-who-full-access-wuhan-52dae25c21db7c80c404251 ...[text shortened]... his is an in-depth, deep understanding of the sites and the people who were involved,” Daszak said."
    Interesting. Daszak contradicts the experience of others in the research team.

    One really should stick one’s nose into that.
    Alas. Time is not on my side.

    I’ll abide and see what happens.
Back to Top