@sonhouse saidI said a warning of what could happen should be given.
@Eladar
So if one person dies from a vax, then the entire run of vax should be destroyed and the company sued for a billion dollars?
If there is a death caused by the vaccine then the company should be held accountable. Paying 100 million dollars plus the taxes and fees involved for each death would not put big pharm out of business.
@eladar saidThat it was experimental and that no "approved" vaccine existed.
@techsouth
What did the warning say?
Possible side affects, I don't recall precisely because I knew going in that the worse case scenario was bad and that I was going to be engaging in an act of "risk management". I'm sure "death" was a possibility for both the vaccine and for COVID.
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@techsouth saidSo people are being pushed to take this experimental unapproved vaccine.
That it was experimental and that no "approved" vaccine existed.
Possible side affects, I don't recall precisely because I knew going in that the worse case scenario was bad and that I was going to be engaging in an act of "risk management". I'm sure "death" was a possibility for both the vaccine and for COVID.
Btw, people are still being killed by COVID after getting vaccinated.
https://boston.cbslocal.com/2021/07/14/covid-breakthrough-cases-deaths-massachusetts-fully-vaccinated-july-10/
@eladar saidIt's an exercise in "risk management". When the vaccines came out, we were told they were 90+% effective (somewhat less for the J&J vaccine).
So people are being pushed to take this experimental unapproved vaccine.
Btw, people are still being killed by COVID after getting vaccinated.
https://boston.cbslocal.com/2021/07/14/covid-breakthrough-cases-deaths-massachusetts-fully-vaccinated-july-10/
In my mental "calculation" that makes me believe that one can still get COVID, even after being vaccinated. But I also would estimate that my chances of getting COVID are significantly reduced after getting the vaccine (and if lots of others get the vaccine too, my chances are reduced substantially more).
Now you're telling me this: Btw, people are still being killed by COVID after getting vaccinated.
I'm having trouble processing that. What is it that you think I would not have been able to predict that I can now predict based on the information in this article? I read the article, and it seems generally in line with what I would have guessed and it does not serve as a counter-point to any pro-vaccination argument I've bought into.
My contention is that for a very large percentage of Americans, the risks associated with getting a vaccination versus the risks associated with not getting a vaccination lead to it being a very sensible choice to get the vaccine. The fact that some getting the vaccine may even die must be considered in light of the fact that some NOT getting the vaccine will die.
Also, herd immunity benefits us all. I recall a discussion on another forum from February 2020 about the predicted affects of COVID on the upcoming year. Some boldly asserted that life has risks, and that they would just live their life as they always had and not worry about the risks. Although admirable in outlook, it overlooks an obvious point, and that is that NO ONE was going to live their life as they always had prior to 2020. And we can try to blame the government for shutting things down, but people were withdrawing from interactions even before the government mandated anything. As you recall, March Madness was canceled in 2020 WITHOUT any mandate to do so from government. If we don't get a grip on the pandemic, your personal life perspective, as bold as it might be, is not going to be sufficient to allow you to live a life as if there were no pandemic because there is too much that it outside your control.
So if you do not think the risk of taking the vaccine is worth it, keep in mind, that's only a small part of what is going to affect your life as the pandemic continues (or dies out). Personally, even if I were not inclined to take the vaccine myself, I'd quietly hope for everyone else to take the vaccine. The quicker everyone else gets vaccinated, the quicker my life returns to normal.
From other conversations, I think you lean kind of conservative, as do I. I recall prior to COVID a law was passed called "right to try" where terminally ill people would try experimental drugs (not FDA approved) since it seemed so obvious that any "risk management" analysis would tilt so strongly in favor of such a choice. It seemed to me that conservatives at the time were better at seeing this as a good risk management equation where as those opposed to the idea were fixated more on the fact that the drugs didn't meet some binary bureaucratic milestone (i.e. FDA Approved) at a time where black and white thinking could never be helpful.
With Covid, we don't yet have FDA approval, but perhaps phase 3 trials are promising enough and the destruction (both economically and fatality numbers) is bad enough that from a "risk management" decision it's a good choice.
@metal-brain saidYeeah. You're not reading or responding to that comment in the proper context. I was responding to bunnyknights comment about parents complaining to a judge that their kid got hurt around the same time they were vaccinated. Of course, you'd need something more than that to prove causality.
"Almost every child gets hurt somehow at some point."
That is your argument? People get hurt so keep hurting them?
Did you bump your head?
Did the vaccine makers lie about being burdened with lawsuits? Because either they didn't have a lawsuit problem at all or their vaccines hurt a lot more people than they admit to.
"There are many millions of children in each ...[text shortened]... ecords? None of the deaths reported by VAERS have a proven cause. It says so right on their website.
The existence of lawsuits means you hurt people? Hospitals get sued daily for frivolous stuff.
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@techsouth
You can trust a genetically modified virus being pumped into your arm.
I will trust making sure my immune system is functional by making sure I am keeping up my vitamin D, Zinc, vitamin C, selenium and other nutrient levels. Throw in a bit of exercise and eating healthy meals all add up to better overall health.
No need to fear COVID if you are healthy.
Herd immunity happens naturally, no need for a vaccine for herd immunity.
@eladar saidHerd immunity happens naturally by LOTS of people being infected and in the case of COVID, resulting in many of them dying.
@techsouth
You can trust a genetically modified virus being pumped into your arm.
I will trust making sure my immune system is functional by making sure I am keeping up my vitamin D, Zinc, vitamin C, selenium and other nutrient levels. Throw in a bit of exercise and eating healthy meals all add up to better overall health.
No need to fear COVID if you are healthy.
Herd immunity happens naturally, no need for a vaccine for herd immunity.
I have a personal friend who was 80, and he was about the most healthy person I have ever known at that age. He died of COVID. I don't "fear" COVID and I don't "fear" a vaccine. I am doing risk management and I am happy with my choice. Since it has been around 2 months since my last shot, I'm kind of feeling good about having made it through what is probably the most risky period. Who knows? Maybe in 5 years 100% of those vaccinated will start dropping like flies. That's a chance I've chosen to take.
Your approach is the following: I will trust making sure my immune system is functional by making sure I am keeping up my vitamin D, Zinc, vitamin C, selenium and other nutrient levels. Throw in a bit of exercise and eating healthy meals all add up to better overall health.
If we can only get maybe 5 billion other human beings with other competing priorities like food and water to adapt your strategy and stick with it for a few years and if we can convince everyone that 80 year-olds have had a good run and shouldn't complain if they die, the world will be able to return to normal operation. That's true of course, only if your science is solid, and I haven't seen any longitudinal studies with empirical results I can use. At this point, I am skeptical your approach will completely prevent deaths in 40 year-olds, although I'd be willing to accept for risk management purposes that it could improve one's odds.
And it doesn't even matter how much you want life to be normal, until the rest of the world gets past a state of high danger, you are not free to do everything you'd otherwise be able to do.
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@techsouth
Tell me how many people younger than 45 that have died from COVID in the US over these past two flu seasons.
The number of deaths we have seen simply exposes how many people have vitamin D deficiency and other immune issues.
Very few people younger than 45 have been killed by their autoimmune response to covid.
@techsouth said"Fore example, if you have a 1% chance of dying of Covid over 2 year span and a 5% chance of having long term complications from Covid, would you take a vaccine that has a 0.001% chance of killing you?"
I'm not trying to weigh in on whether vaccines are actually safe or not. But something to ask is "how safe does a vaccine have to be to be a good choice to take from a risk management perspective?"
Fore example, if you have a 1% chance of dying of Covid over 2 year span and a 5% chance of having long term complications from Covid, would you take a vaccine that has a 0.0 ...[text shortened]... e nor do I find it unreasonable that the government should agree to it in some urgent circumstances.
Where did you get that 0.001% from? What is your source of information?
@wildgrass said"Hospitals get sued daily for frivolous stuff"
Yeeah. You're not reading or responding to that comment in the proper context. I was responding to bunnyknights comment about parents complaining to a judge that their kid got hurt around the same time they were vaccinated. Of course, you'd need something more than that to prove causality.
The existence of lawsuits means you hurt people? Hospitals get sued daily for frivolous stuff.
First of all hospitals are still in business despite being liable.
Is that your explanation for the US taxpayer paying for vaccine injuries instead of the manufacturer? Do you think vaccines are safe and the only people that sue are doing so frivolously?
What about the vaccine courts? Do you think they are paying out billions to settle frivolous lawsuits? Is that what you think?