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Debates Forum

Debates Forum

  1. 16 Apr '14 08:00
    MICHEAL HUDSON, PROF. ECONOMICS, UMKC: Well, there are a number of--all of the money that has been given by the IMF and the West in the past has been given to the kleptocrats that run Ukraine. The UN and the World Bank have Ukraine right next to Nigeria for the GINI coefficient of concentrated income. So, basically, the Europeans have told the kleptocrats, the ten or 12 billionaires that run the country, we will make you very, very rich if you join us. We will give you a lot of IMF money, you can transfer it into your banks and your bank accounts, you can then send it abroad to your offshore banking centers, and the Ukrainian people will owe it. So you can do the Ukraine what the Irish government did to the Irish: you can take the public money, you can give it all to the private bankers, and then you can tax your people and make them pay.

    http://therealnews.com

    Can I ask our learned friends that know anything about it, is this really what happened to the Irish? It seems such a strong and powerful statement to make and is akin to nothing more than a kind of economic slavery.
  2. 16 Apr '14 12:35 / 1 edit
    Originally posted by robbie carrobie
    MICHEAL HUDSON, PROF. ECONOMICS, UMKC: Well, there are a number of--all of the money that has been given by the IMF and the West in the past has been given to the kleptocrats that run Ukraine. The UN and the World Bank have Ukraine right next to Nigeria for the GINI coefficient of concentrated income. So, basically, the Europeans have told the klepto ...[text shortened]... rong and powerful statement to make and is akin to nothing more than a kind of economic slavery.
    The facts are there. This is exactly what happened in Ireland. It is even interesting that it was not even the" Irish government", but just three members of that government who made the decision. It was that easy.
  3. 16 Apr '14 16:16
    Originally posted by deenny
    The facts are there. This is exactly what happened in Ireland. It is even interesting that it was not even the" Irish government", but just three members of that government who made the decision. It was that easy.
    its astonishing, it really is, kind of like a form of remote tyranny, we wont actually occupy your land but you owe us tribute!
  4. 16 Apr '14 16:59
    Originally posted by robbie carrobie
    its astonishing, it really is, kind of like a form of remote tyranny, we wont actually occupy your land but you owe us tribute!
    As opposed to most governments that both occupy and demand tribute.
  5. 16 Apr '14 18:19 / 2 edits
    Originally posted by Eladar
    As opposed to most governments that both occupy and demand tribute.
    Surely there is a difference between taxation and surrendering your sovereignty to the IMF.

    Iceland is remarkable in that it appears to me to be one of the few countries if not the only country to let the bankers take the hit for their own actions. Not once but twice they have voted against accepting an IMF bailout which would make it incumbent upon the entire population to repay debt owed to investors in the Netherlands and the UK for the actions of a few bankers. Since when was investment guaranteed?
  6. 16 Apr '14 19:24
    Originally posted by robbie carrobie
    Surely there is a difference between taxation and surrendering your sovereignty to the IMF.

    Iceland is remarkable in that it appears to me to be one of the few countries if not the only country to let the bankers take the hit for their own actions. Not once but twice they have voted against accepting an IMF bailout which would make it incumbent ...[text shortened]... Netherlands and the UK for the actions of a few bankers. Since when was investment guaranteed?
    The IMF is the Euro version of the Fed here across the pond.
  7. 16 Apr '14 19:51 / 1 edit
    Originally posted by normbenign
    The IMF is the Euro version of the Fed here across the pond.
    No I actually think its worse than that! and actually the US is the largest shareholder in the IMF.

    http://www.globalexchange.org/resources/wbimf/oppose
  8. Standard member finnegan
    GENS UNA SUMUS
    16 Apr '14 22:55 / 3 edits
    Ship Of Fools: How Stupidity And Corruption Sank The Celtic Tiger
    by Fintan O'Toole

    This is a nice, simple and fairly short book which will confirm all that you might wish to know on this subject and leave you an insomniac for the next six months. I am almost tempted to drive up there and lend you my copy. [Edit: too many speed cameras on the A74(M) come to think of it]

    Fintan O'Toole writes excellent commentary for the Irish Times. This book ought to be compulsory reading for free market fantasists like Normbenign. In short, it is absolutely the case that Ireland was robbed on a gigantic scale by its own politicians and nothing has been done about it. The only country looking like it thinks the corrupt bankers ought to be jailed is Iceland as far as I know. We are living in a time of profound fraud, as in the UK our welfare state is dismantled by a neo liberal coalition based on the flat lie that welfare spending in the UK caused the worldwide collapse of the banking system. Meanwhile, our prime minister (Cameron) enjoys private wealth from a family trust based in offshore islands. We have seen private speculators rob the system and destroy it and nobody seems awake enough to understand that this is possible let alone seek to act on that knowledge with the appropriate remedies. So I suppose it will happen again but I don't know how the public sector will be able to bale them out next time around.

    Actually - when you read about the decision to use taxes to guarantee the debts of private investment banks engaged in totally insane and possibly illegal speculative gambling and even just straight scams that could not possibly work without robbing state support, you will find you need medication before sleep can possibly return. These guys really really did rip us off totally. They just screwed us.
  9. 17 Apr '14 00:21
    Originally posted by robbie carrobie
    No I actually think its worse than that! and actually the US is the largest shareholder in the IMF.

    http://www.globalexchange.org/resources/wbimf/oppose
    National banks have always intertwined. The IMF has interest in the Fed, and visa versa. None of it is innocent. Politicians allow it because it's the means of their financing social programs, and military might they could not otherwise afford.
  10. 17 Apr '14 00:29
    Originally posted by finnegan
    Ship Of Fools: How Stupidity And Corruption Sank The Celtic Tiger
    by Fintan O'Toole

    This is a nice, simple and fairly short book which will confirm all that you might wish to know on this subject and leave you an insomniac for the next six months. I am almost tempted to drive up there and lend you my copy. [Edit: too many speed cameras on the A74(M) com ...[text shortened]... leep can possibly return. These guys really really did rip us off totally. They just screwed us.
    BTW, free markets have nothing to do with the manipulated markets of partially free nations, where it is sometime difficult to determine where corporations end and government begins.

    Your commentary admits that business alone couldn't do what is done with the complicity of government. It is like the coyote watching the hen house.
  11. 17 Apr '14 04:17
    Originally posted by normbenign
    BTW, free markets have nothing to do with the manipulated markets of partially free nations, where it is sometime difficult to determine where corporations end and government begins.

    Your commentary admits that business alone couldn't do what is done with the complicity of government. It is like the coyote watching the hen house.
    No, it's like the wolf (corporations) and the sheepdog (government) sitting down together and agreeing to eat the sheep.

    Your pure free market is a field where there's no sheepdog in the first place.
  12. Subscriber Wajoma
    Die Cheeseburger
    17 Apr '14 07:48
    Originally posted by finnegan
    Ship Of Fools: How Stupidity And Corruption Sank The Celtic Tiger
    by Fintan O'Toole

    This is a nice, simple and fairly short book which will confirm all that you might wish to know on this subject and leave you an insomniac for the next six months. I am almost tempted to drive up there and lend you my copy. [Edit: too many speed cameras on the A74(M) com ...[text shortened]... leep can possibly return. These guys really really did rip us off totally. They just screwed us.
    All this stuff that's keeping you up at nights Finnegan is NOT the free market.
  13. Standard member finnegan
    GENS UNA SUMUS
    17 Apr '14 07:59
    Originally posted by normbenign
    BTW, free markets have nothing to do with the manipulated markets of partially free nations, where it is sometime difficult to determine where corporations end and government begins.

    Your commentary admits that business alone couldn't do what is done with the complicity of government. It is like the coyote watching the hen house.
    Quite right. There is a real world in which free market ideology and propaganda is used to manipulate public policy to the benefit of the undeserving filthy rich and there is a fantasy, non existent faery land in which the spiritual ideal of a free market wipes away all the sins of the world. You are with the faeries.
  14. Standard member finnegan
    GENS UNA SUMUS
    17 Apr '14 07:59
    Originally posted by Wajoma
    All this stuff that's keeping you up at nights Finnegan is NOT the free market.
    Quite right. There is a real world in which free market ideology and propaganda is used to manipulate public policy to the benefit of the undeserving filthy rich and there is a fantasy, non existent faery land in which the spiritual ideal of a free market wipes away all the sins of the world. You are with the faeries.
  15. 17 Apr '14 11:09
    Originally posted by finnegan
    Ship Of Fools: How Stupidity And Corruption Sank The Celtic Tiger
    by Fintan O'Toole

    This is a nice, simple and fairly short book which will confirm all that you might wish to know on this subject and leave you an insomniac for the next six months. I am almost tempted to drive up there and lend you my copy. [Edit: too many speed cameras on the A74(M) com ...[text shortened]... leep can possibly return. These guys really really did rip us off totally. They just screwed us.
    My local library has three Fintan O'Toole publications but not this one, i shall request that they order it this very day!