04 Apr 10
Here's a bit of back-of-a-fag-packet investigative journalism on my part. Whether my er... 'expose'... is true or not, is immaterial. It raises an ethical question which might be interesting to debate.
A sinophobic Jakarta taxi driver recently expounded a theory to me. He said that female babies from China were ending up in Indonesia where they were being raised by Indonesian Chinese families.
Is the smuggling of female babies to places like Indonesia an ethically justifiable act in the face of infanticide in China?
04 Apr 10
Originally posted by FMFDo two wrongs make a right?
Here's a bit of back-of-a-fag-packet investigative journalism on my part. Whether my er... 'expose'... is true or not, is immaterial. It raises an ethical question which might be interesting to debate.
A sinophobic Jakarta taxi driver recently expounded a theory to me. He said that female babies from China were ending up in Indonesia where they were being rai ...[text shortened]... es to places like Indonesia an ethically justifiable act in the face of infanticide in China?
04 Apr 10
Originally posted by FMFyes
Here's a bit of back-of-a-fag-packet investigative journalism on my part. Whether my er... 'expose'... is true or not, is immaterial. It raises an ethical question which might be interesting to debate.
A sinophobic Jakarta taxi driver recently expounded a theory to me. He said that female babies from China were ending up in Indonesia where they were being rai ...[text shortened]... es to places like Indonesia an ethically justifiable act in the face of infanticide in China?
04 Apr 10
Originally posted by FMFWhat 'theory' do you think the taxi driver was expounding to you? Sounds more like a simple statement of purported fact.
Here's a bit of back-of-a-fag-packet investigative journalism on my part. Whether my er... 'expose'... is true or not, is immaterial. It raises an ethical question which might be interesting to debate.
A sinophobic Jakarta taxi driver recently expounded a theory to me. He said that female babies from China were ending up in Indonesia where they were being rai ...[text shortened]... es to places like Indonesia an ethically justifiable act in the face of infanticide in China?
04 Apr 10
Originally posted by Sartor ResartusIt may have happened on a relatively limited number of occasions. Personally I am pretty it sure it has. The extent of it is unknown though and it'd be a hard thing to pull off in a country as carefully administered as this, except by way of piecemeal corruption.
What 'theory' do you think the taxi driver was expounding to you? Sounds more like a simple statement of purported fact.
But the theory that the practice is widespread, systematic or involves very high numbers is, unfortunately, part and parcel of rather rabid anti-Chinese (ethnic-Chinese Indonesians, that is) prejudice and propaganda here.
Indonesian Chinese have been victims of discrimination and persecution here for centuries, but for the last 60 years or so especially. When there are civil disturbances, "Chinese" shops and houses are often the first to be burnt down or ransacked. During the ructions surrounding the downfall of Soeharto, there was systematic raping of thousands of "Chinese" women by elements of the armed forces in Solo, Semarang and Jakarta.
04 Apr 10
Originally posted by KazetNagorraA few foods for thoughting:
Well, if the choice is:
a) Kill baby.
b) Smuggle baby.
Then I pick b).
The illegality should be tolerated for how long by Indonesia? Should they crack down on it straight away?
What should Indonesia do to the smugglers if they are apprehended?
If China apprehends smugglers what would be "just" treatment/punishment for them?
If the activity is legalized and regulated, how many babies do you think should Indonesia accept (based on its size and GDP etc. )?
Should the 'international community', so to speak, coordinate their approach to this problem?
Does China have any say over any of this?
Who has jurisdiction over screening/selecting the adopting families: China? Indonesia? International institutions? "the free market"?
04 Apr 10
Originally posted by FMFWell, first of all it would be a good idea to investigate the size of the issue - which, if your judgement is correct, is overstated by "ethnic" Indonesians - if it's only a few hundred babies or whatever then I think Indonesia should just tolerate it.
A few foods for thoughting:
The illegality should be tolerated for how long by Indonesia? Should they crack down on it straight away?
What should Indonesia do to the smugglers if they are apprehended?
If China apprehends smugglers what would be "just" treatment/punishment for them?
If the activity is legalized and regulated, how many babies do you th ...[text shortened]... ng the adopting families: China? Indonesia? International institutions? "the free market"?
04 Apr 10
Originally posted by FMFInteresting issue. Here's my take.
A few foods for thoughting:
The illegality should be tolerated for how long by Indonesia? Should they crack down on it straight away?
What should Indonesia do to the smugglers if they are apprehended?
If China apprehends smugglers what would be "just" treatment/punishment for them?
If the activity is legalized and regulated, how many babies do you th ...[text shortened]... ng the adopting families: China? Indonesia? International institutions? "the free market"?
The illegality should be tolerated for how long by Indonesia? Should they crack down on it straight away?
I don't think Indonesia should be asked to tolerate any illegality. While I sympathize with the plight of these babies and I respect the people trying to save their lives, I cannot support knowingly violating the law of the sovereign country in which you live. Maybe Indonesia should change their law to accommodate these children; but that's for the government to decide, not the individuals.
What should Indonesia do to the smugglers if they are apprehended?
I would say the minimum necessary to ensure that they stop breaking the law.
If the activity is legalized and regulated, how many babies do you think should Indonesia accept (based on its size and GDP etc. )?
A bunch of actuaries and economists have to sit down and figure out how many they can accept without adversely affecting the interests of their own people.
Should the 'international community', so to speak, coordinate their approach to this problem?
I don't think so. It's none of our business. Let Indonesia and China work it out. If they ask for international assistance (unlikely), that's another matter.
Does China have any say over any of this?
They certainly have a say in terms of what goes on on their side of the border. And, yes, even once they cross over into Indonesia, they're still "abducted" Chinese citizens, so China ought to have some say.
Who has jurisdiction over screening/selecting the adopting families: China? Indonesia? International institutions? "the free market"?
Both China and Indonesia do. China, because they're Chinese citizens being adopted from China, and Indonesia because they're going to Indonesia.
04 Apr 10
Originally posted by sh76Thanks for your thoughtful thoughts.
FMF - Should the 'international community', so to speak, coordinate their approach to this problem?
sh76 - I don't think so. It's none of our business. Let Indonesia and China work it out. If they ask for international assistance (unlikely), that's another matter.
To the above point, though, my follow up question is - bearing in mind that this is most likely happening 'between' China and a whole load of other nations with minority ethnic-Chinese populations... Malaysia, Vietnam, South Korea, Laos, Thailand, U.S. and so on (plausibly dozens and dozens of countries, to varying degrees) - do you think this should be addressed as a whole set of separate bilateral issues, or - to repeat my question: "Should the 'international community' coordinate their approach to this problem?
04 Apr 10
Originally posted by FMFFair question.
Thanks for your thoughtful thoughts.
To the above point, though, my follow up question is - bearing in mind that this is most likely happening 'between' China and a whole load of other nations with minority ethnic-Chinese populations... Malaysia, Vietnam, South Korea, Laos, Thailand, U.S. and so on (plausibly dozens and dozens of countries, to varying degrees ...[text shortened]... question: "Should the 'international community' coordinate their approach to this problem?
I guess the question is what "coordinate their approach to this problem" means.
Coordinate to suggest solutions? Sure. Why not?
Coordinate to try to force some solution down China's throat? I don't think the international community has the authority or ability to do that.
China is the lion at the gate. No one can announce a solution to this problem without China's consent. As the Chinese are unlikely to confess that a problem involving infanticide was brought about by their policies, necessitating international intervention, I'm not sure a coordinated single solution is viable.
I just think the "problem" of illegal smuggling into countries has to be dealt with by the recipient countries; but the problem that causes the necessity for the smuggling is a Chinese internal matter.
Now, if the Chinese, for example, had a policy of killing baby girls, that would be a human rights matter and the international community would be morally justified in trying to force a change down the Chinese' throats. But if the problem is a by product of other facially neutral policies and/or cultural issues, to me, it's a Chinese internal matter.