Debates Forum

Debates Forum

  1. Joined
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    11 Apr '18 02:55
    Originally posted by @duchess64
    "I am perfectly prepared to kill Russians if need be. As many as it takes."
    --Stevemcc

    Is Stevemcc prepared to do so in person? Some Russians may like to return the favor.

    "Grow a pair."
    --Stevemcc

    Stevemcc's sexism noted amidst his macho posturing.
    When all else fails, go as hominem.
  2. Subscriberno1marauder
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    11 Apr '18 03:18
    Originally posted by @duchess64
    No1Marauder prefers to ignore the fact that I cited this reputable American magazine as my source.
    http://www.newsweek.com/sea-lies-200118
    "Sea of Lies"

    "The men of the Vincennes were all awarded combat-action ribbons. Commander Lustig,
    the air-warfare coordinator, even won the navy's Commendation Medal for "heroic achievement,"
    his "ability to mai ...[text shortened]... al compensation.

    No wonder many diverse people are disgusted by American arrogance and lying.
    Of course you are shamelessly lying as usual; in no way have I "bestowed moral congratulations" on the US for paying damages. The rest of the post is your usual attempts at personalizing these matter by ridiculous attacks; the report I cited was sharply critical of the Vincennes' actions and my posts cannot possibly be considered anything but in agreement with that judgment.

    Me as a US "flag waver" is one of your more stupid claims (and that is saying something).
  3. Zugzwang
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    11 Apr '18 03:251 edit
    Originally posted by @stevemcc
    When all else fails, go as hominem.
    I QU0TED Stevemcc boasting about his willingness "to kill Russians",
    as many as necessary, perhaps all Russians. Easy to say from an armchair.

    But perhaps the Russians ate not willing to be killed without fighting back.
    Recently, Syria used a Russian missile to shoot down an Israeli fighter (made in the USA).
    So US air strikes on Syria might not be the riskless one-sided slaughter
    that Americans hope for or expect.

    How many American lives (not his own) would Stevemcc be willing
    to lose in pursuing his war against Russia?
  4. Zugzwang
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    11 Apr '18 03:331 edit
    Originally posted by @no1marauder
    Of course you are shamelessly lying as usual; in no way have I "bestowed moral congratulations" on the US for paying damages. The rest of the post is your usual attempts at personalizing these matter by ridiculous attacks; the report I cited was sharply critical of the Vincennes' actions and my posts cannot possibly be considered anything but in agreeme ...[text shortened]... t.

    Me as a US "flag waver" is one of your more stupid claims (and that is saying something).
    As far as I can tell, No1Marauder prefers to accept completely
    the official US Navy story, which (as Newsweek pointed out) contains
    many falsehoods or lies, more than he seems willing to concede.

    Some other Americans have been much more critical than No1Marauder
    of how the US Navy or US government behaved.
  5. Standard membershavixmir
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    11 Apr '18 04:08
    Originally posted by @no1marauder
    No US sailor received decorations or promotions for the shooting down of Flight 655. Having seen video of the USS Vincennes' CIC directly after the incident, I can attest that those on board were horrified when they realized they had shot down a civilian airliner.

    The incident was partially a result of over-aggressiveness' by the Captain of the Vinc ...[text shortened]... iencies but I don't think it's fair to suggest the crew callously shot down a civilian airliner.
    Well, okay, he received an award, despite causing an international crisis and murdering 200+ civilians...

    Yeah, makes the gesture so much more acceptable.
  6. Standard membershavixmir
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    11 Apr '18 04:372 edits
    I have to admit to being seriously worried over the whole Syria-chemical thing.

    Don’t get me wrong: Assad is not a nice person, but looking ar the world’s political leaders... who the hell is?
    And worse is Putin. The man’s as mental as a former KGB-officer with a psychotic lack of manners. Oh. That is what he is? Well. There you go!

    But this chemical poisoning in Britain of a former spy... that story is just so dubious that I’m irked by it. If you want to kill someone, why not just bloody shoot them?
    It doesn’t make sense.

    And the fall-out over it is so exaggerated! Leaving in its wake a whole new level of anti-Russian sentiment.
    Perhaps, it’s like critique of Israel though; that’s anti-semitism we’re led to believe... perhaps this is not political, but anti-Slav.

    So then Assad supposedly uses chemical weapons which target civilians in a war he’s already starting to win.
    Why on Earth would he do that?
    It doesn’t make sense.

    Are there any objective reports on the incident yet?
    Is there independant verification that Syria has stockpiles of chemical weapons? If so, does the regime still have control over them?

    I find it all rather coincidental that it’s all coinciding with this massive anti-Russian propaganda we’re being forced to witness.

    As I said: I like neither regime (don’t much care for the US’s or British politics either, mind you), but I’m getting a nagging feeling we’re not receiving a full enough picture to actually make an educated choice on which side of this debate we should stand.
  7. Subscriberno1marauder
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    11 Apr '18 04:50
    Originally posted by @duchess64
    As far as I can tell, No1Marauder prefers to accept completely
    the official US Navy story, which (as Newsweek pointed out) contains
    many falsehoods or lies, more than he seems willing to concede.

    Some other Americans have been much more critical than No1Marauder
    of how the US Navy or US government behaved.
    You can't tell much then.
  8. Subscriberno1marauder
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    11 Apr '18 04:53
    Originally posted by @shavixmir
    Well, okay, he received an award, despite causing an international crisis and murdering 200+ civilians...

    Yeah, makes the gesture so much more acceptable.
    In the end, he was stripped of command and forced to retire prematurely.

    A court martial would have been better, but any suggestion the Navy rewarded him for the shooting down of the civilian airliner is simply false.
  9. Standard membershavixmir
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    11 Apr '18 06:56
    Originally posted by @no1marauder
    In the end, he was stripped of command and forced to retire prematurely.

    A court martial would have been better, but any suggestion the Navy rewarded him for the shooting down of the civilian airliner is simply false.
    If it looks like a duck, squeals like a duck...
  10. Subscriberno1marauder
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    11 Apr '18 21:09
    A remarkable day. It started with the President of the United States announcing his intention to attack another country on Twitter with something that sounded like it was written by Bart Simpson:

    Russia vows to shoot down any and all missiles fired at Syria. Get ready Russia, because they will be coming, nice and new and “smart!” You shouldn’t be partners with a Gas Killing Animal who kills his people and enjoys it!

    https://twitter.com/realDonaldTrump/status/984022625440747520

    Then in the afternoon the Secretary of Defense was asked by a reporter "Mr. Secretary, have you seen enough evidence to blame the Assad regime for this most recent chemical attack? Have you seen evidence, confident to make that assumption?"

    His reply:

    Mattis: “We’re still assessing the intelligence, ourselves and our allies. We’re still working on this,”

    http://thehill.com/policy/defense/382673-mattis-us-still-assessing-suspected-syria-chemical-weapons-attack

    I really don't know what to add.
  11. Standard memberwolfgang59
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    12 Apr '18 01:08
    Originally posted by @no1marauder
    A remarkable day. It started with the President of the United
    States announcing his intention to attack another country on Twitter.
    ...
    Mattis: “We’re still assessing the intelligence, ourselves and our
    allies. We’re still working on this,”
    Well obviously Trump doesn't share his intel with his Secretary of Defense!
  12. Zugzwang
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    12 Apr '18 23:022 edits
    Originally posted by @stevemcc
    Only if the US want to be taken seriously when they assert that chemical weapons are unacceptable. Therefore, I say yes
    Some UN or US officials have referred to Myanmar's violence against its Rohingya minority as 'genocide'.
    I suppose that the reason that the USA has no intention of intervening militarily in Myanmar
    is because Myanmar's army (or armed civilians) are 'humane' enough to kill (often after
    raping or torturing) the Rohingya WITHOUT using chemical weapons, right?

    While the recent deaths of a few score civilians in Syria by chemical weapons is terrible,
    a dispassionate observer should conclude that it's being exploited as a 'political football'.
    There's no moral consistency to Western powers being quick to condemn this incident as
    an unforgivable atrocity (the act of an 'animal' ) while also being quick to make excuses
    not to intervene in supposed or real 'genocides' in Myanmar now or Rwanda in 1994.
  13. Zugzwang
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    13 Apr '18 01:35
    Originally posted by @no1marauder
    You can't tell much then.
    According to what he has written so far, No1Marauder has conceded only that US officials
    told falsehoods (not lies) early after the US Navy shot down the Iranian airliner.
    According to 'Newsweek', that's far from the full scope of US and dishonesty and lying.

    Would No1Marauder like to say exactly what parts of the official US report that he would
    criticize as false or at least misleading?
  14. Zugzwang
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    13 Apr '18 01:50
    Originally posted by @no1marauder
    In the end, he was stripped of command and forced to retire prematurely.

    A court martial would have been better, but any suggestion the Navy rewarded him for the shooting down of the civilian airliner is simply false.
    As usual, the American lawyer No1Marauder keeps spinning.

    "In the end, he [William Rogers] was stripped of command and forced to retire prematurely"
    --No1Marauder

    Really? The USS Vincennes shot down Iran Air 655 on 3 July 1988.
    "Rogers remained in command of the USS Vincennes until May 27, 1989."
    --Wikipedia

    In fact, William Rogers remained in command for almost eleven months afterward.
    That's quite a long time. I would submit that it's long enough for at least reasonable doubt
    that, as No1Marauder implies, he was 'stripped of command' BECAUSE of the shoot-down.

    "Rogers' next assignment was as commanding officer of the United States Navy Tactical Training
    Group at Point Loma, a group responsible for training officers in handling combat situations."
    --Wikipedia

    Given his 'success' with the Iranian airliner, surely William Rogers was most qualified to
    train other US Navy officers 'in handling combat situations' (sarcasm).

    "..forced to retire prematurely"
    --No1Marauder

    Would No1Marauder have preferred that William Rogers continue for many more years
    to train other US Navy officers to act with the same 'exceptional merit' that he showed?

    "He [William Rogers] retired from the United States Navy in August 1991."
    --Wikipedia

    Wikipedia does not mention that his retirement was involuntary.
    He served in the US Navy from 1965 to 1991. Is retiring after 26 years considered 'premature'?

    Poor Captain William Rogers! Surely, his apologist No1Marauder should be among the
    first Americans to donate to a collection to supplement his generous US Navy pension.
  15. Subscriberno1marauder
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    13 Apr '18 02:532 edits
    Originally posted by @duchess64
    As usual, the American lawyer No1Marauder keeps spinning.

    "In the end, he [William Rogers] was stripped of command and forced to retire prematurely"
    --No1Marauder

    Really? The USS Vincennes shot down Iran Air 655 on 3 July 1988.
    "Rogers remained in command of the USS Vincennes until May 27, 1989."
    --Wikipedia

    In fact, William Rogers remained ...[text shortened]... among the
    first Americans to donate to a collection to supplement his generous US Navy pension.
    Your never ending ridiculous personalizing of every thread is tiresome.

    I stand by my comments; even your Newsweek article concedes that command of the Vincennes, one of the most advanced ships in the Navy at the time, was a prestigious assignment:

    In 1987, Rogers won command of the navy's most prized high-tech hip, an Aegis cruiser. The billion-dollar Vincennes seemed a sure ticket to flag rank.

    http://www.newsweek.com/sea-lies-200118


    Rogers wasn't even 50 at the time; if such a command had been finished successfully it is not unreasonable to imagine he would have been a flag officer in a short time. Instead, he was sent to a desk job and retired after a few years. Perhaps you have trouble reading between the lines (no doubt your biases severely affect your ability to do so), but I don't. Captains in the US Navy rarely retire in their early 50s unless their chances of promotion to flag status is remote. Since Rogers' career had been exemplary up until the shootdown, the available evidence strongly suggests that the incident had a very negative effect on his career.

    Since I already said he should have been court martial-ed, your idea in this post that I am some sort of cheerleader for him shows the extent of your psychosis, but little else. My main point was simply that you are grievously wrong to try to claim that Capt Rogers or any member of the Vincennes crew was rewarded for the shootdown; I think that it beyond question based on the evidence that your claim is dead wrong though an omission of error from you seems to be psychologically impossible.
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