Debates Forum

Debates Forum

  1. Subscriberno1marauder
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    13 Apr '18 02:591 edit
    Originally posted by @duchess64
    According to what he has written so far, No1Marauder has conceded only that US officials
    told falsehoods (not lies) early after the US Navy shot down the Iranian airliner.
    According to 'Newsweek', that's far from the full scope of US and dishonesty and lying.

    Would No1Marauder like to say exactly what parts of the official US report that he would
    criticize as false or at least misleading?
    Maybe you could explain the difference between a "falsehood" and a "lie" in this context.

    I already provided a lengthy analysis which disagrees with several of the initial Navy claims. Perhaps you did not bother to read it since you prefer to instead assume that I took a position I did not (a common occurrence in your posts). You may study it now and retract your absurd accusations after doing so.https://ocw.mit.edu/courses/aeronautics-and-astronautics/16-422-human-supervisory-control-of-automated-systems-spring-2004/projects/vincennes.pdf

    I would also add that Captain Carlson of the USS Sides (which was approximately 18 miles away from the Vincennes at the time and under its tactical command) wrote a scathing letter to the US Naval Institute's magazine barely a year after the incident challenging virtually all the brass' and politician's excuses to justify the shootdown. http://articles.chicagotribune.com/1989-09-08/news/8901110246_1_vincennes-attack-by-iranian-gunboats-iranian-airbus
  2. Seongnam, S. Korea
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    13 Apr '18 04:431 edit
    Honestly, I am not happy with the tweet that Pres. Trump sent about the "smart" missiles at all.

    "Gas Killing Animal," lol, what? That was silly.

    This was bad posturing. This was not the right way to go about this at all. And attacking Syria is the 100% wrong decision at this moment.

    I do still support Pres. Trump on a variety of things but this was upsetting. I appreciated the analysis from Marauder that it sounded like ti was written by Bart Simpson, lol.
  3. Behind the scenes
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    13 Apr '18 05:591 edit
    Originally posted by @duchess64
    The hypocritical US position seems to be that 'chemical weapons are unacceptable'
    only when possessed or used by countries that not the USA or allied with the USA.

    During the Iran-Iraq War, the USA condoned Iraq's frequent usage of chemical weapons against Iran.
    At that time, the USA had a de facto alliance with Saddam Hussein against Iran.

    No thoughtful observer would take seriously US claims to be morally principled in the Middle East.
    No thoughtful observer would take seriously US claims to be morally principled in the Middle East.




    Translation: No matter what the USA does or does not do regarding Syria, Duchess will be against it. 😴
  4. Zugzwang
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    13 Apr '18 19:251 edit
    Originally posted by @mchill
    No thoughtful observer would take seriously US claims to be morally principled in the Middle East.

    Translation: No matter what the USA does or does not do regarding Syria, Duchess will be against it. 😴
    Here's an example of the USA's *recent* moral 'consistency' (sarcasm) on Syria:

    Not long ago, Donald Trump evidently declared that ISIS was the greatest evil and he
    would support everyone who opposed ISIS. That made Assad (a mortal enemy of ISIS)
    approve of Donald Trump's election.

    https://www.newyorker.com/sections/news/trump-to-let-assad-stay-until-2021-as-putin-declares-victory-in-syria

    "Trump to Let Assad Stay Until 2021, as Putin Declares Victory in Syria"
    --Robin Wright (11 December 2017)

    "Despite the deaths of as many as half a million people, *dozens by chemical weapons*,
    in the Syrian civil war, the Trump Administration is now prepared to accept President
    Bashar al-Assad’s continued rule until Syria’s next scheduled Presidential election, in
    2021, according to U.S. and European officials. "

    Only a few months ago, President Trump was ready to accept Assad continuing rule in Syria,
    Now, apparently due to political expediency (he desperately needs a distraction), President
    Trump condemns Assad as an 'animal' and pretends ignorance about Assad's earlier record.
  5. SubscriberWOLFE63
    Tra il dire e il far
    C'e di mezzo il mar!
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    13 Apr '18 19:36
    Originally posted by @duchess64
    Here's an example of the USA's *recent* moral 'consistency' (sarcasm) on Syria:

    Not long ago, Donald Trump evidently declared that ISIS was the greatest evil and he
    would support everyone who opposed ISIS. That made Assad (a mortal enemy of ISIS)
    approve of Donald Trump's election.

    https://www.newyorker.com/sections/news/trump-to-let-assad-sta ...[text shortened]... sident
    Trump condemns Assad as an 'animal' and pretends ignorance about Assad's earlier record.
    3 bad men...doing bad things.
    Are you truly surprised?
  6. Zugzwang
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    13 Apr '18 19:371 edit
    Originally posted by @no1marauder
    Your never ending ridiculous personalizing of every thread is tiresome.

    I stand by my comments; even your Newsweek article concedes that command of the Vincennes, one of the most advanced ships in the Navy at the time, was a prestigious assignment:

    In 1987, Rogers won command of the navy's most prized high-tech hip, an Aegis cruiser. The billi ...[text shortened]... claim is dead wrong though an omission of error from you seems to be psychologically impossible.
    As I recall, No1Marauder never has made any honest admission of significant error to me.
    In a forum full of jingoistic Americans, it's popular for No1Marauder to attempt to minimize the USA's wrongdoing.

    "The men of the Vincennes were all awarded combat-action ribbons. Commander Lustig,
    the air-warfare coordinator, even won the navy's Commendation Medal for "heroic achievement,"
    his "ability to maintain his poise and confidence under fire," enabling him to "quickly and
    precisely complete the firing procedure."
    --John Barry and Roger Charles for 'Newsweek'

    Evidently, No1Marauder takes the disingenuous position that no one aboard the USS Vincennes
    could have been 'rewarded' for shooting down the Iranian airliner unless the US Navy's
    official citation *explicitly* mentioned that as *the only reason* for their commendations.
    Whenever it seems expedient for his ideological agenda, No1Marauder apparently
    absurdly relies upon an official admission as necessary to confirm anything at issue.

    If a British soldier, who happened to shoot and kill Catholic civilians in Northern Ireland,
    received a decoration for his tour of duty and the citation did NOT explicitly 'credit' him
    with killing them, would No1Marauder accept it as proof that he was NOT 'rewarded'?

    Surely, No1Marauder should accept British official investigations in Northern Ireland as readily
    as he may expect Iran to accept US official investigations of US violence against Iranians.
  7. Zugzwang
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    13 Apr '18 19:391 edit
    Originally posted by @wolfe63
    3 bad men...doing bad things.
    Are you truly surprised?
    Mchill was trolling me again by implying that the USA has been morally consistent toward
    Syria and implicitly accusing me of ignoring or lying about it.

    Of course, my trolls never have let the facts prevent their false accusations toward me.
  8. Zugzwang
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    13 Apr '18 19:512 edits
    Originally posted by @no1marauder
    Maybe you could explain the difference between a "falsehood" and a "lie" in this context.

    I already provided a lengthy analysis which disagrees with several of the initial Navy claims. Perhaps you did not bother to read it since you prefer to instead assume that I took a position I did not (a common occurrence in your posts). You may study it now and ...[text shortened]... cagotribune.com/1989-09-08/news/8901110246_1_vincennes-attack-by-iranian-gunboats-iranian-airbus
    Of course, No1Marauder changed the context of what I wrote and criticized about him.
    My point (which No1Marauder has NOT conceded, as far as I know) is that the US Navy
    KEPT LYING LONG AFTER THE FIRST FEW DAYS following shooting down the Iranian airliner.
    I don't recall No1Marauder criticizing *in his own voice* that US Navy lying about what happened.

    http://www.newsweek.com/sea-lies-200118
    "SEA OF LIES" by John Barry and Roger Charles

    "What's more, NEWSWEEK has learned, the Vincennes was inside Iranian territorial waters
    at the time of the shoot-down--in clear violation of international law. The top Pentagon
    brass understood from the beginning that if the whole truth about the Vincennes came out,
    it would mean months of humiliating headlines. So the U.S. Navy did what all navies do
    after terrible blunders at sea: IT TOLD LIES AND HANDED OUT MEDALS.
    This is the story of a naval fiasco, of an overeager captain, panicked crewmen, and the
    COVER-UP that followed.

    But the Pentagon's OFFICIAL INVESTIGATION into the incident, the Fogarty Report,
    is a PASTICHE OF OMISSIONS, HALF-TRUTHS, AND OUTRIGHT DECEPTIONS.
    It was a cover-up approved at the top, by Adm. William Crowe, then chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff.

    Captain Rogers insisted to "Nightline" last week that he had made the "proper decision."
    He opened fire only to protect his ship and crew, he said. But drawing on declassified
    documents, video and audiotape from the ships involved in the incident, and well over 100 interviews,
    NEWSWEEK has pieced together an account that belies the skipper's stoic defense."

    "The vice president claimed that the Vincennes had rushed to defend a merchantman under attack by Iran.
    By July 14, the day of Bush's speech, the Pentagon knew the truth but failed to share it
    with the vice president. The tapes of the Vincennes's Aegis system, with its combat and
    navigational data, reached the United States on July 5 and what they showed was reported
    to the Pentagon on July 10. The Vincennes had been in territorial waters. The Iranian
    airliner was well within the commercial air corridor and had been ascending, not descending.
    There was no beleaguered merchant vessel.

    The cover-up was compounded by the official report on the incident ...
    The investigation was notable for the questions it failed to ask. The commanders on the
    carrier Forrestal were never interviewed; nor was Captain McKenna, the surface-warfare
    commander in Bahrain whose order Rogers ignored. McKenna's staff mailed a tape of
    his tense exchange with Rogers before the sea battle, but never received a response.
    The report released to the public did not include any chart or navigational data to show
    the Vincennes's position at the time of the shoot-down."

    "The navy might have gotten away with all these deceptions had it not been for the slow
    grinding of international law. A lawsuit by the Iranian government has now forced Washington
    to admit, grudgingly, that the Vincennes was actually in Iranian waters -although Justice
    Department pleadings still claim the cruiser was forced there in self-defense. The admission
    is contained in fine print in legal briefs; it has never received public attention until Crowe,
    confronted with the evidence, conceded the truth last week on "Nightline." Crowe denies
    any cover-up; if mistakes were made, he told NEWSWEEK, they were " below my paygrade."
    Rogers continues to insist that his ship was in international waters."

    The fact that the USA's determined cover-up eventually failed (though many 'patriotic'
    Americans may still prefer to believe it) reflects no moral credit upon the USA, apart from
    a few honest Americans who were brave enough to criticize the USA's official cover-up.
  9. Zugzwang
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    13 Apr '18 20:131 edit
    Originally posted by @stevemcc
    Morality is, in international affairs, an utterly empty concept. People who refer to it do not understand much. I make no reference to moral principle at all beyond the rejection of chemical weapons. Don't put your utterly empty words into my mouth.
    That you have noticed no writer expressing approval of Assad's use of chemical weapons only highlights your ...[text shortened]... ou will see the chemical war escalate.
    You live in a world more real than you are. Grow a pair.
    https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2018/04/global-chemical-weapons-watchdog-syria-180412160907503.html

    "I await their report and hope the present rush to a wider, more dangerous to the world, war is put on hold."
    --No1Marauder

    How much less painful for the 'brave' American Stevemcc to accept that from a fellow American man!

    "I AM PERFECTLY PREPARED TO KILL RUSSIANS, IF NEED BE. AS MANY AS IT TAKES.
    Which in no way separates me from the Russian gambit in Syria.
    Putin would love weak asses like you to believe that he will never say "I give up"
    You do his bluffing job for him. Tell him once that you will go to the mat with him and watch
    how he behaves. Fail to provide some resistance and you will see the chemical war escalate.
    You live in a world more real than you are. GROW A PAIR."
    --Stevemcc (to Duchess64, 11 April 2018)
  10. Subscriberno1marauder
    Humble and Kind
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    15 Apr '18 02:56
    Originally posted by @duchess64
    As I recall, No1Marauder never has made any honest admission of significant error to me.
    In a forum full of jingoistic Americans, it's popular for No1Marauder to attempt to minimize the USA's wrongdoing.

    "The men of the Vincennes were all awarded combat-action ribbons. Commander Lustig,
    the air-warfare coordinator, even won the navy's Commendation M ...[text shortened]... ily
    as he may expect Iran to accept US official investigations of US violence against Iranians.
    To try to alleviate your ignorance and confusion, I suggest you read this: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Combat_Action_Ribbon

    The sailors on board the USS Vincennes were awarded Combat Action Ribbons because they "actively participated in .......... surface combat." with the Iranian gunboats (as one sided as that combat might have been). Shooting down an unarmed airliner would not qualify one for a CAR.

    Commander Lustig won the Navy's Commendation Medal for his actions during the surface engagement as well:

    Lustig, the Vincennes's weapons officer on that day, was given two Navy commendation medals -- one for his four years of service on the Aegis cruiser, the other for his role in the surface skirmish.

    The Navy praised Lustig for "heroic achievement" in connection with firing on the seven Iranian boats and lauded his "meritorious service" as weapons and combat systems officer from 1984-88.

    https://www.washingtonpost.com/archive/politics/1990/04/23/2-vincennes-officers-get-medals/cf383f02-05ce-435b-9086-5d61de569ed8/?utm_term=.820dea969225
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