22 Oct 08
I'll start us off with the most artful rumination on these questions of which I know: William Shakespeare - To be, or not to be (from Hamlet 3/1)
To be, or not to be: that is the question:
Whether 'tis nobler in the mind to suffer
The slings and arrows of outrageous fortune,
Or to take arms against a sea of troubles,
And by opposing end them? To die: to sleep;
No more; and by a sleep to say we end
The heart-ache and the thousand natural shocks
That flesh is heir to, 'tis a consummation
Devoutly to be wish'd. To die, to sleep;
To sleep: perchance to dream: ay, there's the rub;
For in that sleep of death what dreams may come
When we have shuffled off this mortal coil,
Must give us pause: there's the respect
That makes calamity of so long life;
For who would bear the whips and scorns of time,
The oppressor's wrong, the proud man's contumely,
The pangs of despised love, the law's delay,
The insolence of office and the spurns
That patient merit of the unworthy takes,
When he himself might his quietus make
With a bare bodkin? who would fardels bear,
To grunt and sweat under a weary life,
But that the dread of something after death,
The undiscover'd country from whose bourn
No traveller returns, puzzles the will
And makes us rather bear those ills we have
Than fly to others that we know not of?
Thus conscience does make cowards of us all;
And thus the native hue of resolution
Is sicklied o'er with the pale cast of thought,
And enterprises of great pith and moment
With this regard their currents turn awry,
And lose the name of action. ...
22 Oct 08
Originally posted by jlillySome would say it's cowardly to commit suicide....BULL! Not only did your brother suffer "REAL" physical pain, but the mental anxiety and depression was no cake walk either. He took the ony way out. He was strong enough to do that.
I know I would have chosen the same route. Why suffer? Not just the teenage angst depression junk, I mean *REAL* suffering? Watching a man waste away from 190 pounds of all muscle to barely anything is a horrid sight.
GRANNY.
22 Oct 08
2 edits
Originally posted by jlillyWhat about mental illness? I mean the sort that runs through generations and where suicides show up in every one of them. Depression, bi-polar disorder, etc., causes real suffering. Combine that with a severe case of ulcerative colitis for which no known treatment was effective, even mildly so, and what have you then? Toss in a few cognitive disabilities that require a person to cope by writing out detailed step by step instructions to himself on "how to go to the drug store (and come back with medicine and your credit card)"; "how to shop for groceries;" "how to navigate through an airport, get your ticket and catch your flight w/o losing your mind or your bags;" and so on -- dozens of such files made necessary because the kid could not process real time experience fast enough or correctly enough and needed to know in advance exactly what to do.
I know I would have chosen the same route. Why suffer? Not just the teenage angst depression junk, I mean *REAL* suffering? Watching a man waste away from 190 pounds of all muscle to barely anything is a horrid sight.
Then, let the high school sweetheart with whom he was living for 3 years lose patience and affection after she's graduated college and he hasn't, throw him out and break up, then insist he keep her company "as a friend," and then on his trying to move on, she sends him a letter destroying his sense of self by making him into the worst kind of bad guy instead of the good guy he always tried to be and wanted to be.
Finally, stop taking meds because the cost is putting a strain on the parents' finances, or one mistakenly believes so.
I guess the point is morals and rationality don't always count as criteria in looking at suicide.
I think the only way to deal with it, as you have, is to install in one's self compassion and forgiveness rather than hurt, blame and anger.\
Not easy to do.
A work in progress, you might say.
And that is because I, not suffering as he did, have always been certain that suicide is completely unacceptable so long as I can function and fulfill by responsibilities towards others. Not really a simple choice at all.
22 Oct 08
Suicide is ultimately a personal choice. It's right for them its right. If a bipolar/severe mentally ill person must die, that is alright. Meds often times make you worse anyway, and since there is no cure, you'll be feeling coked up and crash your whole life, sometimes multiple times a day. Sure, why not
22 Oct 08
Originally posted by ScriabinTook me over thirty years to get over such an incident. I didn't want to get over the pain...thought it would show disrespect for my friend. I resisted even when i was getting help. I finally gave in and now i can remember without the pain.....until now! GET HELP !
What about mental illness? I mean the sort that runs through generations and where suicides show up in every one of them. Depression, bi-polar disorder, etc., causes real suffering. Combine that with a severe case of ulcerative colitis for which no known treatment was effective, even mildly so, and what have you then? Toss in a few cognitive disabilities t ...[text shortened]... and fulfill by responsibilities towards others. Not really a simple choice at all.
GRANNY.
22 Oct 08
Originally posted by jlillywell, the why nots include the effects on his mother and sister as well as me.
Suicide is ultimately a personal choice. It's right for them its right. If a bipolar/severe mentally ill person must die, that is alright. Meds often times make you worse anyway, and since there is no cure, you'll be feeling coked up and crash your whole life, sometimes multiple times a day. Sure, why not
the burden of loss, the shock of it, the everlasting sense we should have/could have done something to prevent it.
the sadness of not having him with us when we get together; the beach where we took them as babies seems like so much empty sand, virtually a wasteland.
22 Oct 08
Originally posted by smw6869yes, I'm not on my own here.
Took me over thirty years to get over such an incident. I didn't want to get over the pain...thought it would show disrespect for my friend. I resisted even when i was getting help. I finally gave in and now i can remember without the pain.....until now! GET HELP !
GRANNY.
just trying to find the way where instead of thinking of one's observations as explanations, one thinks of them as insights. The object is to adjust one's thoughts, and thereby, it is hoped, change one's feelings.
but I'm old enough that the furrows my explanations have plowed into my cerebrum reach right down into my reptile brain -- very hard to change and adjust.
even a day such as today here, not too cool, not too warm, bright, just a bit of a breeze -- fall at its very best -- seems impossible to appreciate other than as a rational matter. the day doesn't feel like a good day -- the sun's light falls on the earth and lights up all the colors of autumn, yet everything seems cold, indifferent, uncaring and barren because of the absence of one who should be here, too, and is not.
22 Oct 08
Originally posted by Scriabin" The way you think is the way you will feel" I Was told that many times and thought it was bull. It's tough. Everytime a negative thought enters you mind write it down on a piece of peper (in your mind) and toss it in the trash. Stock up on paper! You may think that the only recourse to your child's grave is to lie down besided it and play dead, but that will only kill You. Peace of mind is a long time coming. Best start soon.
yes, I'm not on my own here.
just trying to find the way where instead of thinking of one's observations as explanations, one thinks of them as insights. The object is to adjust one's thoughts, and thereby, it is hoped, change one's feelings.
but I'm old enough that the furrows my explanations have plowed into my cerebrum reach right down into my rept ...[text shortened]... t, uncaring and barren because of the absence of one who should be here, too, and is not.
GRANNY.
22 Oct 08
1 edit
Originally posted by smw6869I am skeptical I ever will think that doing the best I could was good enough.
" The way you think is the way you will feel" I Was told that many times and thought it was bull. It's tough. Everytime a negative thought enters you mind write it down on a piece of peper (in your mind) and toss it in the trash. Stock up on paper! You may think that the only recourse to your child's grave is to lie down besided it and play dead, but that will only kill You. Peace of mind is a long time coming. Best start soon.
GRANNY.
I'm sure I'm not the only one who was raised under the general rule that one was never good enough, nothing was ever good enough.
I think I inflicted the same outlook on him, even when I was trying not to or to convey explicitly just the opposite.
Not enough time has gone by and while patience is not my long suit, perseverance in the face of adversity is.
22 Oct 08
Originally posted by ScriabinThe thing is, mental illnesses like depression can distort one's thinking to make suicide seem like more of a rational option than it actually is.
What about mental illness? I mean the sort that runs through generations and where suicides show up in every one of them. Depression, bi-polar disorder, etc., causes real suffering. Combine that with a severe case of ulcerative colitis for which no known treatment was effective, even mildly so, and what have you then? Toss in a few cognitive disabilities t ...[text shortened]... and fulfill by responsibilities towards others. Not really a simple choice at all.
I support euthanasia when there's a valid medical reason plus the person wants to die and is consistent in their decision.
22 Oct 08
Originally posted by ScriabinYou may still be in denial. Looking for reasons why it shouldn't have happened. When you start throwing things against the wall in anger you'll be on your way to acceptance and healing. So they told me and they we correct.
I am skeptical I ever will think that doing the best I could was good enough.
I'm sure I'm not the only one who was raised under the general rule that one was never good enough, nothing was ever good enough.
I think I inflicted the same outlook on him, even when I was trying not to or to convey explicitly just the opposite.
Not enough time has gone by and while patience is not my long suit, perseverance in the face of adversity is.
GRANNY.
23 Oct 08
Originally posted by smw6869Well, I've thought of all the reasons I can offer myself or anyone else why it shouldn't have happened. I go between blaming myself and blaming him for once more not doing what I told him to do: no matter how bad, no matter how much money it costs, no matter how deep the hole you are in, just come to me and I'll help make it better, pay what it takes, pull you out of the hole. He left behind words that convince me he knew this to be true. So the pain was more than he could bear -- even all the help I could give him would not be enough. The combination of seriously bad brain chemistry and severe ulcerative colitis was manageable for so long due to effective medication. He chose to stop taking it because he thought I couldn't afford it, even though I told him not to worry about money. So when he went off the meds, he no longer could make entirely rational decisions, I think.
You may still be in denial. Looking for reasons why it shouldn't have happened. When you start throwing things against the wall in anger you'll be on your way to acceptance and healing. So they told me and they we correct.
GRANNY.
So I go between being able to see this from 30,000 feet, and blaming it all on myself for the many failings and faults I can pin on myself over the years of my relationship with him.
It will take a lot more time before I can achieve any sort of balanced outlook or inner peace -- or that may never come. Rather like the stock market right now --