Jobs, jobs, and more jobs!!

Originally posted by whodey
Didn't you hear? Obama has lowered the taxes for the middle class. He expects to pay down trillions of dollars off of what he is spending of those make above $200,000. Just like "W" he MUST say he gave tax breaks to get elected. It is part of the disconnect American voters have with reality. They want Big Brother to take care of them but don't want to pa ...[text shortened]... times that with king Obama and his czars. The only question is, when does it all go bust?

Yes, he lowered taxes and it was a grave mistake.

Originally posted by KazetNagorra
Yes, he lowered taxes and it was a grave mistake.

You would say it was a grave mistake to lower taxes as where I would say it was a grave mistake to create an entitlement welfare society. I think that is where we differ. As for where we agree, if you are going to spend the money then pay your $##$ bills. This current policy of incresing spending and lowering taxes is pure madness. I just though Obama was suppose to be the man of change. LOL.

Edit: Would you be in favor of suspending ALL entitlement programs to pay down the debt incurred? Once they pay their bills, I say let them have their welfare state if they want it. What I oppose is living beyond your means. Just look at the credit crisis. It is the exact same sickness of living beyond your means.

Originally posted by whodey
I would say it was a grave mistake to create an entitlement welfare society. [...] Would you be in favor of suspending ALL entitlement programs to pay down the debt incurred?

So now you're saying that Obama created the "entitlement welfare society"? And you think right now, in the midst of the deepest recession since the 30s, is the time to pack up the safety net?

Isn't military spending on the table too? Why not start there?

Originally posted by FMF
So now you're saying that Obama created the "entitlement welfare society"? And you think right now, in the midst of the deepest recession since the 30s, is the time to pack up the safety net?

Isn't military spending on the table too? Why not start there?

I did not say that king Obama created the entitlement society. Where did I say that? What I am saying is that Obama is continuing these policies just like "W" did and, in fact, wants to massively expand them via health care and energy policies etc. In addition, he wants to be known as the middle class tax cutting president at the same time. The two positions are incompatable but he would like us to believe he can do it. Do you think he can do it?

As for the "safety net", I see the same net weighing a ton and dragging us into an abyss. Living beyond your means, whether it be buying a mortgage or running up health care costs that you can never pay back gets you to the same place.

Economies flourish and they contract, however, entitlement policies do not take into consideration such extremes. In effect, if you don't haVe the money then print it which, in and of itself, is economic suicide.

Originally posted by whodey
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/31183772/ns/politics-white_house/

Ok kids, wheres the beef? Obama shoved a $787 billion stimulus package through Congress with the promise of 600,000 jobs created or saved. To date, since the stimulus package was passed in February there have been 1.6 milion jobs shed as Obama's approval rating on the economy has dropped from ...[text shortened]... t the problem, the higher the stakes are in gambling you know what the @$$@ you are doing!!!!

In any economic recovery employment lags 6-9 months behind, before the real hiring begins. 😏

Originally posted by bill718
In any economic recovery employment lags 6-9 months behind, before the real hiring begins. 😏

So it is yoiur estimation that Obama taking credit for some 150,000 jobs is erroneous? In addition, do you think that 650,000 jobs will be added by the Obama claim in 6-9 months?

Originally posted by whodey
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/31183772/ns/politics-white_house/

The article states that Obama claims $150,000 jobs that have been created or saved saying, "A figure that is so murky it could never be verified".

That is certainly true. Obama seems to be pretty good at political speaking. Perhaps it's a necessary skill for a politician.

There is no way to verify how many jobs the stimulus kept from being lost. If I were truly interested in this, I'd research how Obama came to these numbers both when he predicted how many would be saved and now when he's reporting his results of how many were saved.

Originally posted by whodey
As for the "safety net", I see the same net weighing a ton and dragging us into an abyss.

You are clearly not a student of history.

Safety nets save societies and economies from being dragged into the abyss. The potential cataclysmic impacts of the recession of 1973 onwards were only avoided thanks to a healthy semblence of safety net being in place in the developed world. As the world emerged from that relatively intact, lo and behold the right wing boggle eyed ones started blaming the 1973 recession on the fact that there was a safety net! Thus we had the British monetarism nightmare and Reagan's smoke and mirrors.

People who get their shorts knotted about the safety net live and breathe their fistful of ghastly little clippings from the New Your Post or The Sun and/or sensationalizinng (hate) web sites, while ignoring millions and millions of hard working, wealth creating, underpaid, honest family-raising people who are not to blame for the power-inforced lopsided distribution of wealth in developed countries, who rely on public services and other elements of safety net to just make do and cling on in their 2 or 3 job working lives. The abyss for them is just there, forever a month away, a pay packet away - and here's you, waffling blithely about pushing them all into it, in accordance with some back of a fag packet ideology that you have. Whodey, you have a blend of hubris and wide-eyedness all of your own.

Originally posted by KazetNagorra
Maybe 2.2 million jobs would have been lost without the stimulus package. I don't know and I can't tell, but did this possibility seriously never cross your mind?

Possibilities are always infinite. But how else would you judge how well a program works other than comparing the situation after the program to before the program?

I'm not ready to pass judgment on the stimulus package quite yet... I'm willing to give it some more time.

But, by your standards, the success or lack thereof of any economic policy can never be judged.

Originally posted by FMF
Whodey, you have a blend of hubris and wide-eyedness all of your own.[/b]

I just remain baffled as to how people can support a government that continues to run up such a horrific debt. Either raise taxes substantially across the board or reduce entitlements. No doubt, the path we are on now is madness. WHy even Obama says it is unsustainable. No doubt, you would favor higher taxes and a continuation of the status quo so that Big Brother can take care of the masses.

Edit: I find it usefull to keep my eyes open and think for themselves rather than some partisan talking peice do it for me. I just wished more people would do the same.

Originally posted by whodey
I just remain baffled as to how people can support a government that continues to run up such a horrific debt. Either raise taxes substantially across the board or reduce entitlements. No doubt, the path we are on now is madness. WHy even Obama says it is unsustainable. No doubt, you would favor higher taxes and a continuation of the status quo so that B ...[text shortened]... her than some partisan talking peice do it for me. I just wished more people would do the same.

FWIW, I agree with you. If a private person, company or even a state were as reckless with its budget as the federal government is, it would be bankrupt before long.

The problem is that politicians only care about doing what is going to get them or their cronies elected and don't care what will come of it in 10 or 20 years because they're going to be retired anyway. Since the federal government can always print money, there's no immediate consequence to reckless spending.

I wouldn't mind seeing a balanced budget Amendment to the Constitution with an exception for emergencies (which would have to be defined, obviously).

And, before anyone asks, yes, I thought that Bush's deficits were also reckless.

Originally posted by KazetNagorra
Maybe 2.2 million jobs would have been lost without the stimulus package. I don't know and I can't tell, but did this possibility seriously never cross your mind?

and maybe the moon is made of cheese! Your statement makes as much sense as that.the burden of proof is not on whodey or anyone else that jobs were saved .Its on the ones claiming that they were in the first place.Obama said if they didnt rush the stimulas package through unemployment could hit 8.5 -9%.Well,it went through w/ all its earmarks because nobody actually read it,so they claim,and we are now pushing 10%.Obama is full of crap.the democrats are full of crap and the republicans are full of crap.As far as the future american generations,they are being burden w/ a debt they will never be able to pay off.As far as the middle class and taxes you wait and see.Alcohol, tobacco,salt, sugar taxes.these things dont hurt the rich man they hurt the working man.This is just the tip of the ice berg.its gona get a hell of alot worse

Originally posted by sh76
I wouldn't mind seeing a balanced budget Amendment to the Constitution with an exception for emergencies (which would have to be defined, obviously).

This is good idea, however it would be a travesty against democracy, and a victory for corporatism (democracy's rival), if the 'military-industrial complex's' lobbyists and bureaucrats/legislators-on-the-payroll continue to keep U.S. military spending off the table when it comes time to figure out how to balance the budget.

Originally posted by FMF
This is good idea, however it would be a travesty against democracy, and a victory for corporatism (democracy's rival), if the 'military-industrial complex's' lobbyists and bureaucrats/legislators-on-the-payroll continue to keep U.S. military spending off the table when it comes time to figure out how to balance the budget.

I think the goal is to spend as much as you like and not worry about paying it back because you have the biggest military in the world.

So you want the money we owe you? Just you try and come and get it sucka!! 😠

Originally posted by sh76
FWIW, I agree with you. If a private person, company or even a state were as reckless with its budget as the federal government is, it would be bankrupt before long.

The problem is that politicians only care about doing what is going to get them or their cronies elected and don't care what will come of it in 10 or 20 years because they're going to be retired ously).

And, before anyone asks, yes, I thought that Bush's deficits were also reckless.

I think the problem is that people are for the most part corrupt and short sided and petty. For example, the reason we went to the moon was simply to beat the Russians. Without this catalyst, I doubt the endevour would have ever been financed by the government. NASA was just a pawn in the Cold War. The same goes for all this reckless spending. All they focus on are short term gains but cannot see past the nose on the face that the money they have coming in retirement may not be worth anything or they may be more at risk in terms of their personal safety in a less stable economic climate or what the heck about their kids future?

I'm not saying these people are stupid, rather, they are just blinded by their own lust for power and wealth.

Another example is the credit crisis. You had people on Wall Street making a killing, you had mortgage companies having a booming business and you had people getting access to a lifestyle they could not afford. So who is gonna blow the whislte on the whole fiasco while everyone is happy? The same with Social Security that is going bust. You have private citizens who are benefitting and you have the governemnt robbing from the cookie jar as well so everyone is happy.....until the bubble bursts.