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Debates Forum

Debates Forum

  1. 02 Oct '09 03:23 / 1 edit
    Was it you? It wasn't me. It wasn't the Europeans telling the American president what to do. It wasn't the Republicans. It wasn't the Independents. It wasn't even the Democrats, was it?

    I would suspect that there are two goals in pushing universal health care coverage in an independent and more capitalist America, when it really seems to fit the model favored in many European countries more than in America.

    1) Democratic pandering to leftist and pseudo-socialist groups and lower-middle to middle income economic groups facing the pinch from rising health insurance costs to keep its constituents happy and gain new middle-income constituents.


    and 2) The move would benefit many power interests who would stand to benefit from the degree and extent of government involvement that could steer business, customer, wealth, contracts, etc in their direction through government influence in the large and growing healthcare sector.


    Debate!
  2. Standard member shavixmir
    Guppy poo
    02 Oct '09 08:21
    Originally posted by eljefejesus
    Was it you? It wasn't me. It wasn't the Europeans telling the American president what to do. It wasn't the Republicans. It wasn't the Independents. It wasn't even the Democrats, was it?

    I would suspect that there are two goals in pushing universal health care coverage in an independent and more capitalist America, when it really seems to fit the ...[text shortened]... ction through government influence in the large and growing healthcare sector.


    Debate!
    This has really stuck up your bum, hasn't it?

    Who the hell asked to be taxed to buy weapons to kill children?
    Why is that alright, but it's not alright to be taxed for health insurance?

    See???
  3. 02 Oct '09 11:57
    Originally posted by eljefejesus
    Was it you? It wasn't me. It wasn't the Europeans telling the American president what to do. It wasn't the Republicans. It wasn't the Independents. It wasn't even the Democrats, was it?

    I would suspect that there are two goals in pushing universal health care coverage in an independent and more capitalist America, when it really seems to fit the ...[text shortened]... ction through government influence in the large and growing healthcare sector.


    Debate!
    The builderbergers want this very badly.
  4. Standard member sh76
    Civis Americanus Sum
    02 Oct '09 16:12 / 1 edit
    Originally posted by shavixmir
    This has really stuck up your bum, hasn't it?

    Who the hell asked to be taxed to buy weapons to kill children?
    I did.

    At the top of the 1040, where it says "Check this box if you want $3 from your taxes to go to the federal election campaign fund," I crossed it out and wrote "I want the money instead to go to buy weapons to kill children."

    Funny. A few weeks later I got a brochure soliciting me to apply to join the Marines.
  5. 02 Oct '09 16:24
    Originally posted by shavixmir
    This has really stuck up your bum, hasn't it?

    Who the hell asked to be taxed to buy weapons to kill children?
    Why is that alright, but it's not alright to be taxed for health insurance?

    See???
    So are you saying both these things are equally wrong? Or are you just changing topics?
  6. 02 Oct '09 16:27
    Originally posted by joe beyser
    The builderbergers want this very badly.
    From the build-a-burger franchise? Well that's more than 1 person. What a responsive government then, in that case it must just be paying very close attention to what people want after all. Hey what's next on the agenda?

    What do each of you want that nobody else was asking for?

    Can I get a rainy day fund? I mean the whats-their-names got socialized healthcare that forces people to get insurance or pay fines, why can't I get a rainy day fund?
  7. Standard member StTito
    The Mullverine
    02 Oct '09 18:50
    Originally posted by eljefejesus
    Was it you? It wasn't me. It wasn't the Europeans telling the American president what to do. It wasn't the Republicans. It wasn't the Independents. It wasn't even the Democrats, was it?

    I would suspect that there are two goals in pushing universal health care coverage in an independent and more capitalist America, when it really seems to fit the ...[text shortened]... ction through government influence in the large and growing healthcare sector.


    Debate!
    And the insurance companies are the victims here? They always get the short end of the stick don't they? Unless you have a pre existing condition. And who does not want it? It sound s to me like the only people who don't want it is the whining minority in the house and senate.
  8. 02 Oct '09 19:02
    Originally posted by eljefejesus
    Was it you? It wasn't me. It wasn't the Europeans telling the American president what to do. It wasn't the Republicans. It wasn't the Independents. It wasn't even the Democrats, was it?

    I would suspect that there are two goals in pushing universal health care coverage in an independent and more capitalist America, when it really seems to fit the ...[text shortened]... ction through government influence in the large and growing healthcare sector.


    Debate!
    Universal healthcare was one of the main topics during the 2008 campaign. During the Democratic primaries, one of the big issues was that Obama's universal healthcare proposal was slightly more moderate than Hilary's proposal.

    The issue was also a key part of the general election campaign. I'm sure most people who voted for Obama or a Democrat for Congress were very much aware that healthcare was going to a major topic on the agenda if Democrats prevailed.

    One of the major obstacles for the Democrats' effort to get a bill passed has been the many liberal members of Congress who've been threatening to vote against the more moderate proposals. They fear losing in 2010 if they pass something that's too "watered down".
  9. 02 Oct '09 19:08
    Originally posted by eljefejesus
    Was it you? It wasn't me. It wasn't the Europeans telling the American president what to do. It wasn't the Republicans. It wasn't the Independents. It wasn't even the Democrats, was it?

    I would suspect that there are two goals in pushing universal health care coverage in an independent and more capitalist America, when it really seems to fit the ...[text shortened]... ction through government influence in the large and growing healthcare sector.


    Debate!
    You were right the first time. Universal healthcare has not been pushed by anybody, to INCLUDE the proposal that has been debated this year. The whole universal healthcare thing is a big strawman argument pushed by the right because so many Americans are so easily lied to. Barack Obama has NOT advocated for universal healthcare, in fact, he (along with the Democratic congress) have been heavily criticized by the left for refusing to put it on the table.

    It doesn't piss you off that guys like Hannity, Limbaugh and pretty much the whole Fox network so easily fools you?
  10. 02 Oct '09 19:11
    Originally posted by Melanerpes
    Universal healthcare was one of the main topics during the 2008 campaign. During the Democratic primaries, one of the big issues was that Obama's universal healthcare proposal was slightly more moderate than Hilary's proposal.

    The issue was also a key part of the general election campaign. I'm sure most people who voted for Obama or a Democrat for Co ...[text shortened]... te proposals. They fear losing in 2010 if they pass something that's too "watered down".
    NO, it wasn't. A public option was debated, not universal AKA "single payer" healthcare. Their proposals were no more univeral healthcare than is Medicare.
  11. 02 Oct '09 19:21 / 4 edits
    Originally posted by USArmyParatrooper
    NO, it wasn't. A public option was debated, not universal AKA "single payer" healthcare. Their proposals were no more univeral healthcare than is Medicare.
    By "universal healthcare" I mean the idea that everyone should have access to affordable quality healthcare insurance. That's been the main goal. But the idea has been to keep the private insurers in the game and not rely on a single-payer approach. This by itself was a concession to critics from the right (not that it persuaded any of them).

    Now in the course of trying to find something that won't add to the deficit (so as to get the blue dogs on board), a certain amount of "watering-down" has been done.
  12. 02 Oct '09 19:24
    Originally posted by Melanerpes
    By "universal healthcare" I mean the idea that everyone should have access to affordable quality healthcare insurance. That's been the main goal. But the idea has been to keep the private insurers in the game and not rely on a single-payer approach. This by itself was a concession to critics from the right (not that it persuaded any of them).

    Now in th ...[text shortened]... icit (so as to get the blue dogs on board), a certain amount of watering-down has been done.
    Not one time EVER did Barack Obama campaign on or even endorse universal healthcare. Universal healthcare specifically refers a system that has nothing to do with Obama's proposals or what is being debated in Congress.
  13. 02 Oct '09 19:29 / 2 edits
    Originally posted by USArmyParatrooper
    Not one time EVER did Barack Obama campaign on or even endorse universal healthcare. Universal healthcare specifically refers a system that has nothing to do with Obama's proposals or what is being debated in Congress.
    elfejesus was referring to Obamacare or whatever it is you want to call the current healthcare reform proposals.
  14. 02 Oct '09 19:33
    Originally posted by Melanerpes
    elfejesus was referring to Obamacare or whatever it is you want to call the current healthcare reform proposals.
    It's an important (and major) distinction though. The a-hole Republicans who LIE about the proposal know the difference. And until Americans stop being so easily lied to the US is always going to have problems.
  15. 02 Oct '09 23:48
    Originally posted by StTito
    And the insurance companies are the victims here? They always get the short end of the stick don't they? Unless you have a pre existing condition. And who does not want it? It sound s to me like the only people who don't want it is the whining minority in the house and senate.
    Who said the insurance companies were victims? If nobody else is talking about them, do you have to pretend that everyone was defending them so you could come in and demonize them to play for popular support? They're just money-making corporations that offer new options that wouldn't have existed if they had never existed, nothing more, nothing less.