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Debates Forum

Debates Forum

  1. 16 Oct '13 01:11 / 3 edits
    The debt ceiling doesn't even make sense. It should instead be understood and procedure that without any kind of debt ceiling or debt ceiling vote that if Congress appropriates money, it will pay the bills. That is their job. There should be no conditions on Congress doing their job and paying for what they already appropriated.

    I think the President and Reid are doing harm to the country and our budget process in entertaining conditions on the debt ceiling vote. Setting very harmful precedent.

    Instead, stand strong, and have a CLEAN CR and a CLEAN debt ceiling votes with no conditions. There are a MAJORITY votes in the Senate and a MAJORITY votes (Democrats + moderate Republicans) in the House for both a CLEAN CR and CLEAN debt ceiling vote.

    Let Cruz stop it in the Senate, or Boehner at the urging of the Tea Party radicals not let the votes go to the House Floor. Let Cruz or Boehner force the US default. Do not give them their ransom and reward their taking America hostage.

    Consider the particulars and lunacy of having ransom conditions. For instance, the condition that the medical device tax be delayed for 2 years to get 3 months of debt ceiling increase? Really? And then what will be the ransom at 3 months? And the next time? And the next?

    If you are Cruz, or Boehner, or Tea Party ideologues, do not take America hostage but instead fight in the budget process for deeper sequestration cuts or repeal or defunding of the ACA, and so forth. Do not demand such as ransom for America paying our past obligations. Win the Presidency and the Senate, especially if you want to repeal the main legislative achievement of the sitting President.

    As for America, never a good thing to give in to terrorist ransom demands. We have no choice. Let Cruz or Boehner take us down. The US default is coming. Vastly increased interest rates. No more 0% auto loans, that's for sure. A lot of bankruptcies on the way. As for me, I hope I still have enough clients who can pay their bills.

    The US default will happen. No doubt. I do not think Boehner will let the votes (clean or even conditioned bills) go to the House Floor where the Democrats and moderate Republicans would combine to give the needed 218 votes.
  2. 16 Oct '13 01:15
    Originally posted by moon1969
    The debt ceiling doesn't even make sense. It should instead be understood and procedure that without any kind of debt ceiling or debt ceiling vote that if Congress appropriates money, it will pay the bills. That is their job. There should be no conditions on Congress doing their job and paying for what they already appropriated.

    I think the President a ...[text shortened]... bankruptcies on the way. As for me, I hope I still have enough clients who can pay their bills.
    Yep.
    Cruz and Boehner are terrotst.
    Got it.
  3. 16 Oct '13 01:16 / 5 edits
    Originally posted by utherpendragon
    Yep.
    Cruz and Boehner are terrotst.
    Got it.
    The US default will happen. No doubt.

    I do not think Boehner will let the debt ceiling vote (clean or even conditioned bill) go to the House Floor where the Democrats and moderate Republicans would combine to give the needed 218 votes to avoid a US default.
  4. 16 Oct '13 06:45
    Originally posted by moon1969
    The US default will happen. No doubt.

    I do not think Boehner will let the debt ceiling vote (clean or even conditioned bill) go to the House Floor where the Democrats and moderate Republicans would combine to give the needed 218 votes to avoid a US default.
    We have the makings of a constitutional crisis. Maybe it's our Arab spring. Good luck, hope to see you all on the other side.
  5. Standard member Bosse de Nage
    Zellulärer Automat
    16 Oct '13 07:46
    The South will rise again.
  6. Subscriber Sleepyguy
    Reepy Rastardly Guy
    16 Oct '13 11:38
    Originally posted by Bosse de Nage
    The South will rise again.
    Heh.
  7. 16 Oct '13 11:54
    Originally posted by moon1969
    The US default will happen. No doubt.

    I do not think Boehner will let the debt ceiling vote (clean or even conditioned bill) go to the House Floor where the Democrats and moderate Republicans would combine to give the needed 218 votes to avoid a US default.
    its kinda exciting, id like to see a default, just to see what will happen, maybe it will be like the millennia bug, all those guys who stockpiled tins of Cambels soup were left looking rather silly.
  8. Standard member smw6869
    Granny
    16 Oct '13 16:59
    Originally posted by moon1969
    The US default will happen. No doubt.

    I do not think Boehner will let the debt ceiling vote (clean or even conditioned bill) go to the House Floor where the Democrats and moderate Republicans would combine to give the needed 218 votes to avoid a US default.
    Shut up! Sit Down! Who the Hell Cares!!!



    GRANNY.
  9. 16 Oct '13 19:16
    Originally posted by moon1969
    The debt ceiling doesn't even make sense. It should instead be understood and procedure that without any kind of debt ceiling or debt ceiling vote that if Congress appropriates money, it will pay the bills. That is their job. There should be no conditions on Congress doing their job and paying for what they already appropriated.

    I think the President a ...[text shortened]... e Floor where the Democrats and moderate Republicans would combine to give the needed 218 votes.
    What budgeting process? The one that hasn't produced a budget since the president took office?
  10. 16 Oct '13 19:25
    Has the government quit collecting tax money? Why should the US default on debt when it has more than enough money coming in to pay that debt?
  11. 16 Oct '13 22:13 / 2 edits
    Originally posted by Eladar
    Has the government quit collecting tax money? Why should the US default on debt when it has more than enough money coming in to pay that debt?
    People use the word “default” in two different senses: (1) strictly, failure to pay the terms of a debt instrument (e.g., a bond, or a mortgage, or other loan), and (2) more broadly, failure to pay any contractual obligation. It seems to me that some of the argument is a product of confusion over those two usages.

    And you’re right: there would be sufficient tax revenue to pay our debt obligations; but there is not sufficient tax revenue to pay all our accrued obligations. I don’t think that my credit status is unaffected by my failure to pay my accrued rent, or emergency hospital bills, as long as I can still pay off my credit card.

    Either kind of “default” negatively affects the status of the US in the global economy.

    The catch-22 is, as you’ll likely point out, that Congress and the President (and the American people) might irrationally feel free to rack up new debt, under the false assumption that default (of either kind) can be forever avoided by increasing the debt ceiling limit—while, in fact, the accrued debt represents obligations already committed to as budget outlays, and so raising the debt ceiling does not create new debt.
  12. 17 Oct '13 00:24
    Originally posted by vistesd
    People use the word “default” in two different senses: (1) strictly, failure to pay the terms of a debt instrument (e.g., a bond, or a mortgage, or other loan), and (2) more broadly, failure to pay any contractual obligation. It seems to me that some of the argument is a product of confusion over those two usages.

    And you’re right: there would be suffi ...[text shortened]... lready committed to as budget outlays, and so raising the debt ceiling does not create new debt.
    Accrued obligation can be redefined. This is called creating a budget. If you can't afford to have the positions, then cut back on the position. This is how things work in the real world.

    Simply saying that we must continue on a road that we can't afford leads to 'default' isn't a good enough reason. As you've pointed out, it is the misuse of the word. It is an exaggeration and used for propaganda.
  13. 17 Oct '13 01:32 / 1 edit
    Originally posted by dryhump
    What budgeting process? The one that hasn't produced a budget since the president took office?
    Which worked quite nicely for the GOP who got the sequestration cuts without any revenue increase. Why you think the Republicans have been blocking the budget conference.
  14. 17 Oct '13 02:56
    Originally posted by Eladar
    Accrued obligation can be redefined. This is called creating a budget. If you can't afford to have the positions, then cut back on the position. This is how things work in the real world.

    Simply saying that we must continue on a road that we can't afford leads to 'default' isn't a good enough reason. As you've pointed out, it is the misuse of the word. It is an exaggeration and used for propaganda.
    Accrued obligation can be redefined. This is called creating a budget.

    Once I have contracted to make a payment for certain goods or services, how can I “redefine” that contract? My apartment manager has provided me with living space in return for payment. I signed a contract. Now I can just “redefine” that? And refuse to pay rent for the period that I already occupy the space? And expect to be able to rent from—whom, in the future?

    An accrued obligation is not the same as a future—as yet to be uncontracted, unbudgeted—obligation.

    You're not wrong--with regard to future budgets (without asking what we are or are not budgeting for: that might raise an argument). I have things in my life that I am willing to risk high levels of debt for--and things that I am not. I am sure that you could produce a similar list.
  15. 17 Oct '13 15:38 / 2 edits
    Originally posted by vistesd
    [b]Accrued obligation can be redefined. This is called creating a budget.

    Once I have contracted to make a payment for certain goods or services, how can I “redefine” that contract? My apartment manager has provided me with living space in return for payment. I signed a contract. Now I can just “redefine” that? And refuse to pay rent for th ...[text shortened]... levels of debt for--and things that I am not. I am sure that you could produce a similar list.[/b]
    The government must honor its contracts? Wow, tell that to the people who lose their jobs because military contracts have been canceled.

    Each Congress is supposed to decide how money is spent, and their decisions are not tied to what prior Congresses have done. Congress can spend money how it chooses, but being an adult and making sound decisions doesn't get you elected. Spending money and making the people who got you there rich does get you re-elected and puts money in your bank accounts. How rich is the average multiple term Senator?