Please turn on javascript in your browser to play chess.
Debates Forum

Debates Forum

  1. 07 May '15 21:10 / 1 edit
    you see your assumptions show your conclusions in the post about "lets take a look at blacks and cops"

    thin liberal minds always think thin little cliches.
  2. 10 May '15 02:20
    Originally posted by thomasglass
    you see your assumptions show your conclusions in the post about "lets take a look at blacks and cops"

    thin liberal minds always think thin little cliches.
    The situation in Baltimore, and the shooting death of a suspect in Detroit, by a black ICE officer, puts the matter in focus. Should we be looking at just white cops, or is the question of police misconduct or over reaction toward suspects regardless of race?
  3. 10 May '15 08:05
    Originally posted by normbenign
    Should we be looking at just white cops, or is the question of police misconduct or over reaction toward suspects regardless of race?
    Black cops can be racist too.
    I do think we should be extra careful when looking at individual cases. It is often nearly impossible to be sure that racism was the main cause of the incident or even a major factor.
    However, when looking at statistics, it becomes blatantly obvious that there is institutional racism in the way the police for carries out its work and in the way the police are punished or not when they commit certain acts, and in the way the justice system treats suspects.
    In most cases of backlash over police misconduct, the main concern has been that the police involved be charged. The racism at issue is not just whether the cop was racist when he misconducted himself but whether there is racism in not charging him for the misconduct or letting him off those charges.
  4. Standard member shavixmir
    Guppy poo
    10 May '15 10:52
    I thought this was going to be a thread on Samual L. Jackson... Playing the lead in a new film called Dirty Leroy or something...
  5. 13 May '15 02:08
    Originally posted by twhitehead
    However, when looking at statistics, it becomes blatantly obvious that there is institutional racism in the way the police for carries out its work and in the way the police are punished or not when they commit certain acts, and in the way the justice system treats suspects.
    Statistics can be misleading, intentionally so, especially to those viewing them from afar.

    The argument here often expressed is that blacks experience more trouble with cops due to their committing outrageous amounts of crime way out of proportion to the proportion of the population.

    The counter argument is that is the result of biased enforcement, racially motivated. I would say that the latter argument is more easily believed by outsiders, or those who wish to portray themselves as victims.

    I think the argument that institutional racism accounts for disproportional rates of arrest and incarceration is preposterous on its face. Half a century ago, there was far greater institutional racism in all parts of the US. Yet, black criminality, arrest rates and incarceration were no where near what they are today. Don't mistake me. I am not saying that institutional racism doesn't still exist. It just doesn't exist in the amount and intensity to justify or explain the rampant criminality and arrests of young black men.
  6. 13 May '15 06:41
    Originally posted by normbenign
    Statistics can be misleading, intentionally so, especially to those viewing them from afar.
    So, you basically just chuck out all the facts and rely on what for your argument? Oh yes. Nothing whatsoever.

    I think the argument that institutional racism accounts for disproportional rates of arrest and incarceration is preposterous on its face. Half a century ago, there was far greater institutional racism in all parts of the US. Yet, black criminality, arrest rates and incarceration were no where near what they are today.
    And you know this how, if not for statistics?

    Don't mistake me. I am not saying that institutional racism doesn't still exist. It just doesn't exist in the amount and intensity to justify or explain the rampant criminality and arrests of young black men.
    It does explain the rampant arrests of young black men for crimes that young white men would never be arrested for.
  7. 13 May '15 07:37
    A Ted Talk on institutional racism:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-2Dj9M71JAc
  8. 13 May '15 13:43
    Originally posted by twhitehead
    So, you basically just chuck out all the facts and rely on what for your argument? Oh yes. Nothing whatsoever.

    [b]I think the argument that institutional racism accounts for disproportional rates of arrest and incarceration is preposterous on its face. Half a century ago, there was far greater institutional racism in all parts of the US. Yet, black cr ...[text shortened]... rampant arrests of young black men for crimes that young white men would never be arrested for.
    Statistics can, in context, illuminate things. Was racism, institutional racism greater in the 40s, 50s and early 60s, before civil rights legislation, and with Jim Crowe laws in full force, or now?

    It does explain the rampant arrests of young black men for crimes that young white men would never be arrested for.

    That is a myth, or rather a blatant lie. There are quite a few white boys in our penitentiary system, just a disproportionately small number compared to young black men. Ask any resident of a large American city, black or white, who they fear they may be robbed, mugged or raped by. Invariably they fear young blacks more. It is not misdirected fear.
  9. 13 May '15 13:45
    Originally posted by twhitehead
    A Ted Talk on institutional racism:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-2Dj9M71JAc
    Is it worse now than before 1964? If not, how can it be blamed for the disproportional growth of black criminals?
  10. 14 May '15 07:45
    Originally posted by normbenign
    Statistics can, in context, illuminate things.
    Just not when they illuminate what you don't want them to illuminate apparently.

    Was racism, institutional racism greater in the 40s, 50s and early 60s, before civil rights legislation, and with Jim Crowe laws in full force, or now?
    How would you measure it? You have already admitted that it didn't result in as many false arrests of black people back then. Maybe it is worse now.

    That is a myth, or rather a blatant lie.
    Prove me wrong. Where are your statistics?

    There are quite a few white boys in our penitentiary system, just a disproportionately small number compared to young black men.
    I know that. I have not claimed otherwise, and it doesn't contradict what I did claim.
    To prove that what I said is a blatant lie, you must demonstrate that white people committing the same crimes as those black people get arrested for, also get arrested at the same rates.

    Ask any resident of a large American city, black or white, who they fear they may be robbed, mugged or raped by. Invariably they fear young blacks more. It is not misdirected fear.
    It nevertheless, doesn't prove that what I said was a blatant lie.
  11. 14 May '15 18:49 / 1 edit
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZIxF9PrCaz0


    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MiDMfX0OA8c
  12. 15 May '15 00:25
    Originally posted by twhitehead
    Just not when they illuminate what you don't want them to illuminate apparently.

    [b]Was racism, institutional racism greater in the 40s, 50s and early 60s, before civil rights legislation, and with Jim Crowe laws in full force, or now?

    How would you measure it? You have already admitted that it didn't result in as many false arrests of black peop ...[text shortened]... is not misdirected fear.[/b]
    It nevertheless, doesn't prove that what I said was a blatant lie.[/b]
    Anyone living in the US now would laugh at you and the assertion that institutional racism is worse in the 21st century than in the middle of the 20th. if you need statistics,, then you're too far away and not really interested, as I'm not about what goes on in Zambia or S. Africa.

    Statistics are also not required as your claim was that white folks are never arrested for lots of things that blacks get arrested for. Jails are loaded with white and Hispanic guys on the same charges that are made against blacks. It is not necessary that they be arrested in the same rates and same numbers. In a perfect world that would indicate both groups had similar criminality. In our less than perfect one, higher arrest and higher incarcerations indicate that more crimes have been committed, and solved and more convictions and incarcerations have been made of blacks than anyone else, both numerically and proportionately. It is the only sensible interpretation of the data.

    Whether your argument was a blatant lie or a mistake of ignorance, I don't know, but giving you the benefit of the doubt, I would be hard pressed to interpret data from S. Africa.

    I'm told by residents that black criminality there is a significant problem mainly outside of the big cities, and gated communities.

    This doesn't indict individual blacks, but rather the culture which was created from the 60s forward absolving them of the responsibilities for their own actions and results. Obviously, many blacks manage to overcome the hood, and become useful and exceptional citizens.
  13. 15 May '15 00:45
    Originally posted by FishHead111
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZIxF9PrCaz0


    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MiDMfX0OA8c
    Everyone wants to shut up Colin Flaherty because he tells the unvarnished truth.

    Check out what's happened in Baltimore after Mosby's charging of 6 cops.
    http://townhall.com/tipsheet/mattvespa/2015/05/10/good-news-after-state-attorney-charged-cops-crime-is-surging-in-baltimore-n1997027
  14. 15 May '15 06:54
    Originally posted by normbenign
    Anyone living in the US now would laugh at you and the assertion that institutional racism is worse in the 21st century than in the middle of the 20th.
    So your only evidence is other peoples laughter?

    if you need statistics,, then you're too far away and not really interested, as I'm not about what goes on in Zambia or S. Africa.
    I don't understand? I am too far away for statistics? What does Zambia or S. Africa have to do with it?

    Statistics are also not required as your claim was that white folks are [b]never arrested for lots of things that blacks get arrested for.[/b]
    OK. In the YouTube video I posted, a black child was charged with possession of stolen goods because he was travelling with his father in a car that had been stolen (not by his father).
    Can you present a single case of a white child being similarly charged.

    Jails are loaded with white and Hispanic guys on the same charges that are made against blacks.
    I need to see the statistics. You claim the charges are the same, I say they are not. Prove it.

    It is the only sensible interpretation of the data.
    No, it is the naive interpretation of the data as it is based on insufficient information.

    Whether your argument was a blatant lie or a mistake of ignorance, I don't know, but giving you the benefit of the doubt, I would be hard pressed to interpret data from S. Africa.
    What are you on about? I said nothing about S. Africa.
  15. 16 May '15 00:21
    Originally posted by twhitehead
    So your only evidence is other peoples laughter?

    [b]if you need statistics,, then you're too far away and not really interested, as I'm not about what goes on in Zambia or S. Africa.

    I don't understand? I am too far away for statistics? What does Zambia or S. Africa have to do with it?

    Statistics are also not required as your claim was that ...[text shortened]... ed to interpret data from S. Africa.
    What are you on about? I said nothing about S. Africa.[/b]
    I am saying that you don't know what's going on in America, and I don't know much about S. Africa. Withe the internet it ought to be easy enough for you to research the data you seek. I don't feel obliged to provide statistical evidence of what is obvious to most people who live her.