Lula proves once again that he is indeed a fool.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/americas/8451109.stm

A package of reforms put forward by the Brazilian government to improve human rights is causing growing controversy.
"A proposed truth commission to investigate torture during military rule is said to have so angered forces chiefs that they threatened to resign.
Parts of the Catholic Church have opposed moves thought sympathetic to abortion and gay civil unions."

"The National Human Rights Plan first provoked a row when it was revealed that it proposed setting up a truth commission to investigate torture and killings carried out during the 21 years the military was in control, from 1964 to 1985.
In the period before democracy was restored an amnesty law was passed, in effect granting immunity to state officials involved in torture as well as those in the opposition who had resorted to violence.

Military chiefs believe the truth commission is an attempt to get round the amnesty law, while supporters argue it is simply designed to secure justice for the families of those who died and disappeared."

"Brazil's former President, Fernando Henrique Cardoso, told the BBC the government had not presented the proposal well.

"The way the situation has been presented was in the sense that all the crimes that had been exercised by those in power in the past would be judged, not the crimes that also the other side eventually could have responsibility for," he said.
"So this gave a sense of one-sidedness, and this produced unrest in the armed forces."

With sections of the Catholic Church, the media and his own agriculture minister antagonised by other aspects of the human rights plan, the president will have a challenge to find a solution that is acceptable to all sides.

........

any thoughts?

Originally posted by generalissimo
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/americas/8451109.stm

[b]A package of reforms put forward by the Brazilian government to improve human rights is causing growing controversy.
"A proposed truth commission to investigate torture during military rule is said to have so angered forces chiefs that they threatened to resign.
Parts of the Catholic ...[text shortened]... e to find a solution that is acceptable to all sides.

........

any thoughts?[/b]

It sounds wonderful. Whether it will be well implemented - who knows?

Originally posted by generalissimo
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/americas/8451109.stm

[b]A package of reforms put forward by the Brazilian government to improve human rights is causing growing controversy.
"A proposed truth commission to investigate torture during military rule is said to have so angered forces chiefs that they threatened to resign.
Parts of the Catholic ...[text shortened]... e to find a solution that is acceptable to all sides.

........

any thoughts?[/b]

Torturers and murderers should be brought to justice; that they were nice enough to give themselves amnesty when Brazil was still a dictatorship should be completely irrelevant.

Originally posted by no1marauder
Torturers and murderers should be brought to justice; that they were nice enough to give themselves amnesty when Brazil was still a dictatorship should be completely irrelevant.

whats the point of the amnesty if we're just going to ignore it?

futhermore, half of the people involved (both sides) are either dead or elderly, and the program proposed would only look into what the people from the military did, ignoring the left-wing terrorists who also killed and tortured.

Originally posted by AThousandYoung
It sounds wonderful. Whether it will be well implemented - who knows?

It sounds wonderful

and yet it has received criticism from the media, the church, and lula's own agriculture minister.

I've seen on a brazilian newspaper that the program would interfere with the media, surely that is against the principle of a free press.

Originally posted by generalissimo
whats the point of the amnesty if we're just going to ignore it?

futhermore, half of the people involved (both sides) are either dead or elderly, and the program proposed would only look into what the people from the military did, ignoring the left-wing terrorists who also killed and tortured.

Dictators giving themselves and their henchmen amnesty to escape the consequences of their crimes is an affront to natural justice and to their victims. They have no legitimate power to do so, so their attempts to insulate themselves from justice should be ignored.

Anyone who resisted against a military dictatorship by physical means was justified in doing so by the Natural Law. They should be given a medal and a pension for their service to Brazil.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Natural_Law#Hobbes.27_natural_law

...

According to Hobbes, there are nineteen Laws. The first two are expounded in chapter XIV of Leviathan ("of the first and second natural laws; and of contracts"😉; the others in chapter XV ("of other laws of nature"😉.

* The first Law of nature is that every man ought to endeavour peace, as far as he has hope of obtaining it; and when he cannot obtain it, that he may seek and use all helps and advantages of war.
* The second Law of nature is that a man be willing, when others are so too, as far forth, as for peace, and defence of himself he shall think it necessary, to lay down this right to all things; and be contented with so much liberty against other men, as he would allow other men against himself.
* The third Law is that men perform their covenants made. In this law of nature consisteth the fountain and original of justice... when a covenant is made, then to break it is unjust and the definition of injustice is no other than the not performance of covenant. And whatsoever is not unjust is just.
* The fourth Law is that a man which receiveth benefit from another of mere grace, endeavour that he which giveth it, have no reasonable cause to repent him of his good will. Breach of this law is called ingratitude.
* The fifth Law is complaisance: that every man strive to accommodate himself to the rest. The observers of this law may be called sociable; the contrary, stubborn, insociable, froward, intractable.
* The sixth Law is that upon caution of the future time, a man ought to pardon the offences past of them that repenting, desire it.
* The seventh Law is that in revenges, men look not at the greatness of the evil past, but the greatness of the good to follow.
* The eighth Law is that no man by deed, word, countenance, or gesture, declare hatred or contempt of another. The breach of which law is commonly called contumely.
* The ninth Law is that every man acknowledge another for his equal by nature. The breach of this precept is pride.
* The tenth law is that at the entrance into the conditions of peace, no man require to reserve to himself any right, which he is not content should be reserved to every one of the rest. The breach of this precept is arrogance, and observers of the precept are called modest.
* The eleventh law is that if a man be trusted to judge between man and man, that he deal equally between them.
* The twelfth law is that such things as cannot be divided, be enjoyed in common, if it can be; and if the quantity of the thing permit, without stint; otherwise proportionably to the number of them that have right.
* The thirteenth law is the entire right, or else...the first possession [in the case of alternating use), of a thing that can neither be divided nor enjoyed in common should be determined by lottery.
* The fourteenth law is that those things which cannot be enjoyed in common, nor divided, ought to be adjudged to the first possessor; and in some cases to the first born, as acquired by lot.
* The fifteenth law is that all men that mediate peace be allowed safe conduct.
* The sixteenth law is that they that are at controversie, submit their Right to the judgement of an Arbitrator.
* The seventeenth law is that no man is a fit Arbitrator in his own cause.
* The eighteenth law is that no man should serve as a judge in a case if greater profit, or honour, or pleasure apparently ariseth [for him] out of the victory of one party, than of the other.
* The nineteenth law is that in a disagreement of fact, the judge should not give more weight to the testimony of one party than another, and absent other evidence, should give credit to the testimony of other witnesses.

Originally posted by no1marauder
Dictators giving themselves and their henchmen amnesty to escape the consequences of their crimes is an affront to natural justice and to their victims. They have no legitimate power to do so, so their attempts to insulate themselves from justice should be ignored.

Anyone who resisted against a military dictatorship by physical means wa ...[text shortened]... g so by the Natural Law. They should be given a medal and a pension for their service to Brazil.

Dictators giving themselves and their henchmen amnesty to escape the consequences of their crimes is an affront to natural justice and to their victims. They have no legitimate power to do so, so their attempts to insulate themselves from justice should be ignored.

First of all, they also gave amnesty to left-wing terrorists. Even if this was true, don't you think its too late to change things now? there are no surviving military presidents, who are they going to prosecute? and if they prosecute anyone are they also going to do the same to the surviving left-wing terrorists?

Anyone who resisted against a military dictatorship by physical means was justified in doing so by the Natural Law.

You seem to forget that those terrorists weren't fighting for democracy, they were fighiting for communism, it is no surprise that some of these terrorists are members of the workers party.

Natural LOL!

Originally posted by generalissimo
[b]Dictators giving themselves and their henchmen amnesty to escape the consequences of their crimes is an affront to natural justice and to their victims. They have no legitimate power to do so, so their attempts to insulate themselves from justice should be ignored.

First of all, they also gave amnesty to left-wing terrorists. Even if this was ...[text shortened]... r communism, it is no surprise that some of these terrorists are members of the workers party.[/b]

The "left wing terrorists" were fighting to overthrow a brutal dictatorship. As such, they did Brazil a great service. Again, they should be honored.

A truth commission's job is guess what? To get the truth. Why anyone would oppose the truth coming out who isn't a murderer and torturer is a good question. And if the truth is that there are still people alive who, as part of that brutal dictatorship, committed despicable crimes against the Brazilian people, they should be brought to justice.

Originally posted by no1marauder
The "left wing terrorists" were fighting to overthrow a brutal dictatorship. As such, they did Brazil a great service. Again, they should be honored.

A truth commission's job is guess what? To get the truth. Why anyone would oppose the truth coming out who isn't a murderer and torturer is a good question. And if the truth is that there a ...[text shortened]... committed despicable crimes against the Brazilian people, they should be brought to justice.

The "left wing terrorists" were fighting to overthrow a brutal dictatorship. As such, they did Brazil a great service. Again, they should be honored.

and in the process they also killed and tortured, but I guess its fair for them to have a free pass.


Why anyone would oppose the truth coming out who isn't a murderer and torturer is a good question

agreed. as long as you also punish the surviving terrorists as well.

committed despicable crimes against the Brazilian people

the brazilian people? the majority of the population was unharmed by the dictatorship, the only people who died or were imprisoned were the small minority of communists who fought to install their own dictatorship.

Originally posted by generalissimo
The "left wing terrorists" were fighting to overthrow a brutal dictatorship. As such, they did Brazil a great service. Again, they should be honored.[/b]

and in the process they also killed and tortured, but I guess its fair for them to have a free pass.


Why anyone would oppose the truth coming out who isn't a murderer and torturer is ...[text shortened]... mprisoned were the small minority of communists who fought to install their own dictatorship.

Sure, only communists who were trying to set up a Red totalitarian state were tortured and killed by the Brazilian military dictatorship.

Are you really that much of a brainwashed imbecile to believe that?

EDIT: Here's a book you should order: http://www.utexas.edu/utpress/excerpts/excattop.html

It was written by the dirty Reds who ran the Archdiocese of Sao Paulo.

Originally posted by no1marauder
Sure, only communists who were trying to set up a Red totalitarian state were tortured and killed by the Brazilian military dictatorship.

Are you really that much of a brainwashed imbecile to believe that?

Im not denying the fact that there innocent people who suffered, but they were very small minority. In comparison to the neighboring countries, brazil had few casualties.

Are you really that much of a brainwashed imbecile to believe that?

Unlike you I actually lived in the country, and let me tell you, I never came across anyone who felt they were directly harmed by the dicatorship, they complained the system was undemocratic (which I find perfectly reasonable) , but I never met anyone who had relatives imprisoned or killed by the authorities.

Originally posted by generalissimo
Im not denying the fact that there innocent people who suffered, but they were very small minority. In comparison to the neighboring countries, brazil had few casualties.

[b]Are you really that much of a brainwashed imbecile to believe that?

Unlike you I actually lived in the country, and let me tell you, I never came across anyone who felt ...[text shortened]... reasonable) , but I never met anyone who had relatives imprisoned or killed by the authorities.[/b]

Good for you. I'm sure Waldomiro Batista wishes he could say the same:

Several hundred dissidents were killed or "disappeared" during military rule in Brazil compared to thousands in Argentina, but torture was widespread. The use of electric shocks, chemicals and sexual abuse has been documented.

Among a small group of protesters outside the club, Waldomiro Batista said his 15-year-old sister was tortured and disappeared during the dictatorship, and that time was running out for his family to find out what happened to her.

"It's a battle that's lasted almost 40 years and my family is dying -- my mother died two years ago," said Batista, who had travelled to Rio from his central home state of Goias.

"They have to say where they buried people, they have to open their archives."

http://news.asiaone.com/News/AsiaOne+News/World/Story/A1Story20080808-81335.html

Do you think that the murderers of his sister deserve punishment? Do you think he should be allowed to have access to the archives so he might be able to locate her body?

Probably not; she must have been a terrorist.

"Unlike neighbours such as Argentina and Chile, Brazil has never prosecuted anyone for the murder and widespread torture of dissidents during its 1964-1985 dictatorship."

It's time that changed.

Originally posted by no1marauder
Good for you. I'm sure Waldomiro Batista wishes he could say the same:

Several hundred dissidents were killed or "disappeared" during military rule in Brazil compared to thousands in Argentina, but torture was widespread. The use of electric shocks, chemicals and sexual abuse has been documented.

Among a small group of protesters ...[text shortened]... s during its 1964-1985 dictatorship."

It's time that changed.

Im not sure what point you're trying to make.

I never denied there was abuse, nor did I say the dictatorship was right all along, all my posts regarding the subject remain with consistent with the view that it was the lesser of two evils. I think there should be no hypocrisy, if there are going to be prosecutions they should target people on both sides.

Sure you can point out some extreme example, but thats all it is, there's no evidence torture and murder happened to the majority of the population.