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  1. Standard member bill718
    Enigma
    17 Jun '13 17:23
    I'm undecided on this matter, but Mr. Snowden gives some rather convincing reasons for exposing the information about the NSA'a activities. Any thoughts?

    http://news.yahoo.com/blogs/lookout/snowden-live-chat-144220722.html
  2. Standard member empovsun
    Adepto 'er perfectu
    17 Jun '13 17:43
    Originally posted by bill718
    I'm undecided on this matter, but Mr. Snowden gives some rather convincing reasons for exposing the information about the NSA'a activities. Any thoughts?

    http://news.yahoo.com/blogs/lookout/snowden-live-chat-144220722.html
    oh good, i thought we had caught him
    and would be torturing him by now
    like we did with bradely manning
  3. 17 Jun '13 17:49
    Originally posted by empovsun
    oh good, i thought we had caught him
    and would be torturing him by now
    like we did with bradely manning
    Bradely Manning was tortured ? Explain.
  4. Standard member empovsun
    Adepto 'er perfectu
    17 Jun '13 17:55
    Originally posted by utherpendragon
    Bradely Manning was tortured ? Explain.
    it was already ruled in military court that he was mistreated
    i recall one of his statements as, "i thought i was going to die"
    sometime last year, if i remember correctly. just google the ruling


    we really need the press to do their damn jobs and try to interview this young man, or at least publish anything about his trial that just started
  5. 18 Jun '13 06:37
    Originally posted by bill718
    I'm undecided on this matter, but Mr. Snowden gives some rather convincing reasons for exposing the information about the NSA'a activities. Any thoughts?

    http://news.yahoo.com/blogs/lookout/snowden-live-chat-144220722.html
    Finding the truth is easy. Just find out Dick Cheneys opinion and pick the opposite opinion.
  6. 20 Jun '13 07:24
    Originally posted by empovsun
    it was already ruled in military court that he was mistreated
    i recall one of his statements as, "i thought i was going to die"
    sometime last year, if i remember correctly. just google the ruling


    we really need the press to do their damn jobs and try to interview this young man, or at least publish anything about his trial that just started
    After a google search I have not found where he has been "tortured".

    "He was held in isolation in a windowless 6-by-8-foot cell for nine months in a Marine brig in Quantico, Va., where he was denied sunlight and meaningful exercise, and was not allowed to wear clothing for part of his detention"

    You go to most county jails in the U.S. and these are normal conditions. And that is prior to any conviction or a day in court. If it is a circuit court ,one could easily be under those conditions for a year or more before having their case heard. This is extremely common in the South. Georgia,for example.
    As far as the "no clothing" for part of his stay, that would be because of a suicide watch. They take away anything you could hurt yourself with,put you in a paper gown, and a guard litteraly watches you 24/7. A guard actually takes a chair,sits in front of your cell and stares at you around the clock.You go to any lock up in America,say" I wish I was dead", "i wanna die" or words to that affect and this is what happens.
    For this female judge to confirm that Bradley was "mistreated" (not tortured as you claim)because of those conditions,she is essentially saying all inmates awaiting trial nationwide are mistreated.
    If you have ever been in jail,had a family member or friend in jail,worked in a jail ,you would realize that this is common accepted legal practice.
    Their is no evidence,as far as I can tell,or the Courts can tell, that Manning was tortured.Incovienenced,uncomfortable ? Yes. But then again, thats jail.
  7. 20 Jun '13 10:31
    Originally posted by empovsun
    it was already ruled in military court that he was mistreated
    i recall one of his statements as, "i thought i was going to die"
    sometime last year, if i remember correctly. just google the ruling


    we really need the press to do their damn jobs and try to interview this young man, or at least publish anything about his trial that just started
    Can you provide a link to the court ruling that he was mistreated?
  8. Standard member empovsun
    Adepto 'er perfectu
    20 Jun '13 17:01
    Originally posted by utherpendragon
    After a google search I have not found where he has been "tortured".

    "He was held in isolation in a windowless 6-by-8-foot cell for nine months in a Marine brig in Quantico, Va., where he was denied sunlight and meaningful exercise, and was not allowed to wear clothing for part of his detention"

    You go to most county jails in the U.S. and these ...[text shortened]... Manning was tortured.Incovienenced,uncomfortable ? Yes. But then again, thats jail.
    yea, he was in isolation for 23 hours every day
    naked for long periods of time, and subjected
    to enough stress that he felt that he might be killed
    he was even on "suicide watch" even after the shrinks cleared him!
    if its really that common place in u.s. prisons then ffs i give up

    but there is some merit to the claim when the u.n's commission on human rights said that what we did was close to torture: http://www.salon.com/2012/03/07/un_top_torture_official_denounces_bradley_mannings_detention/singleton/

    if you want or care to hear bradley mannings side of the story here's a link to some audio during his trial: https://pressfreedomfoundation.org/blog/2013/03/fpf-publishes-leaked-audio-of-bradley-mannings-statement

    we can put the mistreatment aside - what he did shouldn't place him in prison for the rest of his life.
    he's agreed to 20+ years. isn't that enough?
  9. Standard member empovsun
    Adepto 'er perfectu
    20 Jun '13 17:04
    Originally posted by USArmyParatrooper
    Can you provide a link to the court ruling that he was mistreated?
    unfortunately, i cannot. i read the last line on the page which discouraged me to link it here. could be nothing, but you can just see the citation on wiki
    its number 16, i think

    here's the story: http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/wikileaks/9789457/WikiLeaks-Bradley-Manning-was-illegally-imprisoned-judge-rules.html
  10. 20 Jun '13 18:16 / 1 edit
    Originally posted by empovsun
    yea, he was in isolation for 23 hours every day
    naked for long periods of time, and subjected
    to enough stress that he felt that he might be killed
    he was even on "suicide watch" even after the shrinks cleared him!
    if its really that common place in u.s. prisons then ffs i give up

    but there is some merit to the claim when the u.n's commission on h ce him in prison for the rest of his life.
    he's agreed to 20+ years. isn't that enough?
    okay. So, I think we have established that Manning has not been "tortured"as you originally claimed.
    He is incarcerated. He is in jail. Not a country club. Jail sucks. It is supposed to suck. That is why it is a deterrant for most Americans to go there.
    As far as his personal stress goes, thats entirely subjective and based on his perceptions. The bottom line is,Manning needs to get a grip and realize where the hell he is at.
    Quit crying about it and accept his new life style which he is going to have for a very long time.If he does not accept it, he will either end up killing himself or be killed by another inmate and become another statistic.
    I'm sorry if I sound callous or harsh but it is what it is.

    I have often spoke of prison reform in this country and do believe the conditions can often be deplorable but they have been found legal and apparently acceptable to most of society.Many people want it more harsh. Many social conservative republicans inparticular.Which, I do not align with.
    But that is another topic altogether.
    Nobody here or anywhere wants to address it.Its the elephant in the room that nobody will mention. The U.S. has more people incarcerated than any other nation.And its gonna stay that way and get worse (as well as the conditions)until somebody w/some influence and a pair of balls picks up the torch and runs with it. Hell, Jimmy Hoffa spoke out about it "way back when",after his relatively brief stay in the system.
    Manning has got to accept his situation, grow up and quit cying about it. He is not going to beat the system.He is just making matters worse for himself.
  11. Standard member empovsun
    Adepto 'er perfectu
    20 Jun '13 18:28
    Originally posted by utherpendragon
    okay. So, I think we have established that Manning has not been "tortured"as you originally claimed.
    He is incarcerated. He is in jail. Not a country club. Jail sucks. It is supposed to suck. That is why it is a deterrant for most Americans to go there.
    As far as his personal stress goes, thats entirely subjective and based on his perceptions. The b ...[text shortened]... g about it. He is not going to beat the system.He is just making matters worse for himself.
    i respect your opinion, but i hardly think "he's crying about it" or "needs to get a grip" when he already has agreed to a lengthy sentence

    my problem is with the life sentence prosecutors are gunning for just because he embarrassed the u.s. government . the whole "aiding the enemy" bit is nonsense, and i agree: beating the system is not an option for him
  12. 20 Jun '13 18:28
    Originally posted by utherpendragon
    okay. So, I think we have established that Manning has not been "tortured"as you originally claimed.
    He is incarcerated. He is in jail. Not a country club. Jail sucks. It is supposed to suck. That is why it is a deterrant for most Americans to go there.
    As far as his personal stress goes, thats entirely subjective and based on his perceptions. The b ...[text shortened]... g about it. He is not going to beat the system.He is just making matters worse for himself.
    Manning should have done what Snowden did. I guess maybe he must have been naïve enough to think he would get a fair shake within the system.
  13. Standard member empovsun
    Adepto 'er perfectu
    20 Jun '13 18:30
    Originally posted by whodey
    Manning should have done what Snowden did. I guess maybe he must have been naïve enough to think he would get a fair shake within the system.
    if you listen to the audio, its pretty clear that he's naive


    but that's why i like him
  14. 20 Jun '13 18:35
    Originally posted by empovsun
    if you listen to the audio, its pretty clear that he's naive


    but that's why i like him
    I think Snowden was a little naïve as well. Of course, not as naïve as Manning.

    I think that Snowden thought that his actions might make a difference in changing the system. He also bought into the whole spreading "democracy" around the world bit.

    He's young, but I think Snowden is brighter than most on average.