10 Jan 05
Maybe we humans are already perfect and it is only our many negative emotions that keep our true nature hidden. Maybe if we cultivate selfless love, compassion, and insightful wisdom, we'll see that we're not as flawed as many believe.
I understand that this notion is counter to many belief systems, but how many of us take time to work on finding what the nature of our 'flaws' are?
10 Jan 05
I'd love this to be true, but when I wake up in the morning and the first thing I think of doing is pretending to be asleep so my girlfriend does all the nasty stuff like change the cat box and feed them, I feel that perfection is as far away from human nature as I am from bedding PJ Harvey.
10 Jan 05
lol Yes, I understand your plight, Starrman.
But until we remove negative tendencies by careful examination and work to increase good qualities, I don't believe it's fair to say it is not possible. It's easy to say we're flawed and nothing can change that fact. That is just not true. Our 'flaws' are no more concrete than anything else in the relative world.
10 Jan 05
Originally posted by eagles54Couldn't those negative emotions be considered flaws? Are emotions stoppable? Even if this were possible, we are creatures of intuition, and intuition is the logic of emotion. To achieve this perfection you speak of, we would have to remove our emotion. Lack of emotion would mean lack of intuition. Lack of intuition would mean millions of people standing around with vacant expressions with no idea of what to do, with no notion that they are even supposed to have something to do.
Maybe we humans are already perfect and it is only our many negative emotions that keep our true nature hidden. Maybe if we cultivate selfless love, compassion, and insightful wisdom, we'll see that we're not as flawed as many believe.
I understand that this notion is counter to many belief systems, but how many of us take time to work on finding what the nature of our 'flaws' are?
It is right to yearn for perfection (Godliness for the religious) but to actually expect to achieve it is admirable but also is a flaw all by itself. To think you have achieved perfection is neurotic. Humility is a virtue.
10 Jan 05
Originally posted by thesonofsaulI disagree that countering negative emotions will produce an automaton. Eliminating negative emotions allows generosity, kindness, patience and the like to arise because one is not so self-centered any longer.
Couldn't those negative emotions be considered flaws? Are emotions stoppable? Even if this were possible, we are creatures of intuition, and intuition is the logic of emotion. To achieve this perfection you speak of, we would have to remove our emotion. Lack of emotion would mean lack of intuition. Lack of intuition would mean millions of people s ...[text shortened]... flaw all by itself. To think you have achieved perfection is neurotic. Humility is a virtue.
I never have said that I have achieved perfection. I don't know where you got that from.
And yes, humility is a great virtue, no argument on that. Selflessness leads one toward perfection and ever greater humility.
10 Jan 05
Originally posted by eagles54I just threw in that bit about achiving perfection because it matched the subject. Sorry for the insinuation.
I disagree that countering negative emotions will produce an automaton. Eliminating negative emotions allows generosity, kindness, patience and the like to arise because one is not so self-centered any longer.
I never have said that I have achieved perfection. I don't know where you got that from.
And yes, humility is a great virtue, no argument on that. Selflessness leads one toward perfection and ever greater humility.
But I still have to ask you this. You speak as if it were possible to remove negative emotions and leave the positive. For one thing, there is no clear dividing line between the two. Second, how can anyone be generous is no one is selfish? How can anyone be kind if no one is mean? If we are no longer self-centered, will we no longer care for ourselves? Would we even know what light is if there is no darkness?
And how can you feel humility if you know you are perfect? The ultimate contradiction. To feel perfect you have to have high self-esteem. If you feel high self-esteem, you most certainly are not selfless. To feel humility you need to feel flawed.
10 Jan 05
Originally posted by thesonofsaulNo problem on the my misinterpretation of your meaning. I was hoping you didn't mean me, personally. lol
I just threw in that bit about achiving perfection because it matched the subject. Sorry for the insinuation.
But I still have to ask you this. You speak as if it were possible to remove negative emotions and leave the positive. For one thing, there is no clear dividing line between the two. Second, how can anyone be generous is no one is selfish ...[text shortened]... h self-esteem, you most certainly are not selfless. To feel humility you need to feel flawed.
No clear dividing line between the two? Well, negative emotions spring from selfishness and positive emotions spring from selflessness. That's a pretty clear dividing line.
Just because a person may not be selfish doesn't mean they may not need our generosity. I know good people who have nearly nothing. By helping them in material, protective, and spiritual means, we aid them by being generous and they aid us by allowing us to become more fully human, more directly toward our true nature.
Even if we were not self-centered, we certainly would not act like fools. Of course we would care for ourselves.
A person can experience great humility while perfecting themselves because they increasingly know experientially that the ego is not an entity with any concrete reality to it. Since there is no self to feel 'esteemed' there is also no self to feel proud.
I don't mean to say that achieving such a state of being is easy. I'm saying that I've seen the possibilty discounted so much that I wonder if any who espouse that we humans are fundamentally flawed know that from direct experience.
11 Jan 05
1 edit
Originally posted by eagles54Perfected by whom? Ourselves? Each other?
I should have stated from the outset that perhaps we humans have the 'potential' to become perfected.
Maybe that is why there is a lack of debate on this topic which has so much room for a deeper understanding of what it means to be human.
Both would rely on an inate understanding of what perfect was and since none of us have this, perfection will always elude us.
God?
Certainly not. God (if you believe in him) is perfection, to raise us up to his level would be futile, we would become gods ourselves.
A different higher power?
If such a thing exists then perhaps, but why would you give us perfection if you were a higher power? Unlikely, perfection is not a gift one gives away.
As to potential, Hamlet says it best:
I have of late--but wherefore I know not--lost all my mirth, forgone all custom of exercises; and indeed it goes so heavily with my disposition that this goodly frame, the earth, seems to me a sterile promontory, this most excellent canopy, the air, look you, this brave o'erhanging firmament, this majestical roof fretted with golden fire, why, it appears no other thing to me than a foul and pestilent congregation of vapours.
What a piece of work is a man! how noble in reason! how infinite in faculty! in form and moving how express and admirable! in action how like an angel! in apprehension how like a god! the beauty of the world! he paragon of animals! And yet, to me, what is this quintessence of dust? man delights not me: no, nor woman neither.
As far as I'm concerned, we could be as beautiful as possible, make the most amazing inventions, works of art, acts of conscience and it would all be for nothing because at the end of the day people will act like their instincts tell them. They will be angry, jealous, rude, spiteful, subversive and every bad emotion under the sun because that's what makes us human. Man delights not me. (women on the other hand... 🙂)
11 Jan 05
Originally posted by StarrmanYes, perfected by ourselves through direct insight into the nature of relative and absolute reality.
Perfected by whom? Ourselves? Each other?
Both would rely on an inate understanding of what perfect was and since none of us have this, perfection will always elude us.
God?
Certainly not. God (if you believe in him) is perfection, to raise us up to his level would be futile, we would become gods ourselves.
A different higher power?
If ...[text shortened]... sun because that's what makes us human. Man delights not me. (women on the other hand... 🙂)
The idea of what is perfect is just that, an idea. Better to forget about what constitutes perfection in thoughts and ideas, look inward, cultivate selflessness and wisdom.
I just feel that too many people say, "Ah, I'm just a human, my foibles cannot be overcome. I'm at the mercy of my naggingly bad traits. Such is my lot." That is just not the case. Accepting ourselves as unchangable is a terrible thing to do. A person can become more filled with real love for their fellow beings. They can learn how to be generous, less concerned about this conglomeration of flesh, bone, sinew, thoughts, perceptions and emotions dubbed 'me.' It's entirely possible to do much better about ourselves than we are now. That has been my experience.
11 Jan 05
1 edit
Ah, so not perfect, just better?
I agree totally, an end to intollerance, to confrontation, to vice; this would be a much happier world. I do my best, but it is a difficult thing to do to work with others. Survival is a strong instinct and even in our modern world we have the pangs of it gnawing at the edge of our beings. Regardless of the advances we've made since Cro-Magnon man, we are really just animals, kill or be killed rests comfortably on our shoulders.
I for one try to step out of the bounds of my evolutionary constraints and like to think I make a pretty good human being (if a little proud 🙂), I aim to be as nice as I can to humans, animals, the environment, even those of a religious persuasion 😛 Every little counts, but perfection is out of reach for sure (unless you're adriana lima).
11 Jan 05
Originally posted by eagles54
Maybe we humans are already perfect and it is only our many negative emotions that keep our true nature hidden. Maybe if we cultivate selfless love, compassion, and insightful wisdom, we'll see that we're not as flawed as many believe.
I understand that this notion is counter to many belief systems, but how many of us take time to work on finding what the nature of our 'flaws' are?
Ask Satan about this. He's the expert in this field.