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Debates Forum

  1. Subscriber AThousandYoung
    It's only business
    13 Feb '11 19:23
    Class warfare is between the rich and the poor. What do you think?
  2. Donation rwingett
    Ming the Merciless
    13 Feb '11 20:01
    Originally posted by AThousandYoung
    Class warfare is between the rich and the poor. What do you think?
    Disagree.

    Class warfare is between capitalist class and the laboring class. The distinction between the middle class and the poor is just a subdivision of the laboring class. It is a distinction the capitalist class is eager to accentuate in order to weaken the class consciousness of the laboring class as a whole. It is more difficult for a stratified working class to have a unified outlook, which, in turn, weakens their strength and makes them easier to keep in line.
  3. 13 Feb '11 20:32
    "Class warfare" is meaningless rhetoric.
  4. Subscriber AThousandYoung
    It's only business
    13 Feb '11 20:36 / 2 edits
    Originally posted by KazetNagorra
    "Class warfare" is meaningless rhetoric.
    Then how come poor people keep getting shot by cops in defense of rich peoples' capital?

    EDIT - E.g.

    http://www.wsmv.com/news/26259026/detail.html

    POSTED: 12:57 pm CST December 23, 2010
    UPDATED: 12:19 am CST December 24, 2010

    Police said Charles K. Glover, 37, robbed two Fifth Third banks on Thursday. One of the banks was on Donelson Pike, the other was at 1311 Bell Road in Antioch. When Glover left the bank, a dye bag with the money exploded. Authorities got a description of his maroon Saturn sedan, and a chase ensued from southern Davidson County to Madison.

    Police said they deployed a spike strip, which didn't flatten Glover's tires. A police helicopter monitored Glover's driving path, and undercover officer tried to box him in with their vehicles. Police said Glover's car rammed into a police pickup truck and continued.

    A witness said two officers, Brent Brauer and John Pryor, chased Glover through a Kroger parking lot on foot when he abandoned his car in Madison. When they got to an alley beside Kroger, the witness said, police yelled at him to freeze and drop down.

    Police fired several shots, hitting Glover, at a nearby Church’s Chicken restaurant, at 214 South Gallatin Pike. Officers said they started shooting because they thought he was reaching for a gun.

    "(The robber) had multiple (opportunities) to show his hands and surrender. He did not. These officers are all about trying to go home tonight to their families, and this individual put the officers in fear of their lives and forced them to open fire on him," said police spokesman Don Aaron.

    Glover's clothing was searched at the scene, and he didn't have a gun, police said in a news release Thursday evening.
  5. Subscriber AThousandYoung
    It's only business
    13 Feb '11 20:53
    Originally posted by rwingett
    Disagree.

    Class warfare is between capitalist class and the laboring class. The distinction between the middle class and the poor is just a subdivision of the laboring class. It is a distinction the capitalist class is eager to accentuate in order to weaken the class consciousness of the laboring class as a whole. It is more difficult for a stratified w ...[text shortened]... a unified outlook, which, in turn, weakens their strength and makes them easier to keep in line.
    It's not the middle class who get shot by capitalist minions and/or government agents. It's the poor.
  6. Donation rwingett
    Ming the Merciless
    13 Feb '11 21:46
    Originally posted by KazetNagorra
    "Class warfare" is meaningless rhetoric.
    Class warfare is what built the middle class. But, paradoxically, building a middle class is what diluted class consciousness over time. A divided labor force, without class consciousness, is weakened against a capitalist class which constantly seeks to undermine those middle class gains. As the middle class shrinks, one would hope that a class consciousness would return to the labor force and the cycle would begin again.
  7. Donation rwingett
    Ming the Merciless
    13 Feb '11 21:48
    Originally posted by AThousandYoung
    It's not the middle class who get shot by capitalist minions and/or government agents. It's the poor.
    Bank robbers being shot by trigger-happy cops has little to do with class warfare.
  8. Standard member sh76
    Civis Americanus Sum
    13 Feb '11 22:13
    Originally posted by rwingett
    Disagree.

    Class warfare is between capitalist class and the laboring class. The distinction between the middle class and the poor is just a subdivision of the laboring class. It is a distinction the capitalist class is eager to accentuate in order to weaken the class consciousness of the laboring class as a whole. It is more difficult for a stratified w ...[text shortened]... a unified outlook, which, in turn, weakens their strength and makes them easier to keep in line.
    Many members of the "capitalist class" are lower and "middle class" people if, by capitalist, you mean entrepreneur or business founder and many people who are rich have gotten there strictly based on salary.

    How exactly do you define "capitalist" class?
  9. Donation rwingett
    Ming the Merciless
    13 Feb '11 22:26 / 1 edit
    Originally posted by sh76
    Many members of the "capitalist class" are lower and "middle class" people if, by capitalist, you mean entrepreneur or business founder and many people who are rich have gotten there strictly based on salary.

    How exactly do you define "capitalist" class?
    Yeah, I knew that was coming. You can bicker about who fits into which class, but basically the capitalist class are the ones who own the productive resources of society as private property and the laboring class are those who sell their labor for a wage. Because there is some degree of social mobility and a highly stratified workforce, there are rich laborers and middle class capitalists of varying degrees. It's not all poor campesinos against the rich latifundistas.
  10. Subscriber AThousandYoung
    It's only business
    13 Feb '11 22:34
    Originally posted by sh76
    Many members of the "capitalist class" are lower and "middle class" people if, by capitalist, you mean entrepreneur or business founder and many people who are rich have gotten there strictly based on salary.

    How exactly do you define "capitalist" class?
    Capitalists are those who make money from investments of capital i.e. raw materials, buildings and goods which are not used by the owner but are owned only for the purpose of profit while somebody else uses it. Instead of making money through work, they make money through legal ownership of property.

    The capitalist neither creates wealth nor uses the wealth that comes through his hands. He simply takes a cut because the law says he owns lots of stuff that he never uses, including raw materials, buildings and tools which are needed to work. He withholds these resources from workers unless they pay him, and because there are fewer capitalists than workers the capitalists can coordinate more easily to form a "money cartel". These are the ones who get pissed off when the government prints money because it undermines their ownership of all the wealth.
  11. Subscriber AThousandYoung
    It's only business
    13 Feb '11 22:36
    Originally posted by rwingett
    Bank robbers being shot by trigger-happy cops has little to do with class warfare.
    Yes it does. He targets banks because the wealth there is capital, not personal property. Everybody knows ripping off The Man is different than ripping off Joe Average in his own home.
  12. Standard member sh76
    Civis Americanus Sum
    13 Feb '11 22:42
    Originally posted by AThousandYoung
    Capitalists are those who make money from investments of capital i.e. raw materials, buildings and goods which are not used by the owner but are owned only for the purpose of profit while somebody else uses it. Instead of making money through work, they make money through legal ownership of property.

    The capitalist neither creates wealth nor uses ...[text shortened]... off when the government prints money because it undermines their ownership of all the wealth.
    What if you work for a living and also own stock in Google?

    Which class are you part of?
  13. Donation rwingett
    Ming the Merciless
    13 Feb '11 22:42
    Originally posted by AThousandYoung
    Yes it does. He targets banks because the wealth there is capital, not personal property. Everybody knows ripping off The Man is different than ripping off Joe Average in his own home.
    Please. Even I'm not going to buy that one. The bank robber is not doing anything to advance the cause of the laboring class. He's motivated solely by personal gain. Therefore it is not a form of class warfare. It's simply a random crime, even if it does come at the expense of the rich.
  14. Subscriber AThousandYoung
    It's only business
    13 Feb '11 22:46 / 1 edit
    Originally posted by sh76
    What if you work for a living and also own stock in Google?

    Which class are you part of?
    Depends on the details. "Owning stock in Google" is not quite the same as "owning an apartment building" or "owning a factory". "Stock in Google" is an abstraction, not physical wealth.

    Probably middle class. I'd need to know more details. What kind of work? Mr. Khosla, the venture capitalist I referred to in the other thread probably thinks he works long hours. What physical objects and resources can you make the police withhold from the market?
  15. Subscriber AThousandYoung
    It's only business
    13 Feb '11 23:05
    Originally posted by rwingett
    Bank robbers being shot by trigger-happy cops has little to do with class warfare.
    It has everything to do with class warfare. It's instinctive. None of this intellectual collectivist Communist crap that the elites use to snare gullible but angry "useful idiots".

    This is American style. He is a career criminal. Early on he decided to say "F* YOU!!!" to "society" and "the Man". Like they say in East L.A., he don't fake it, he takes it...but he's not trying to hurt anybody that doesn't deserve it.

    I'm sure he has lots of connections with impoverished people.