Modern Conservative = Liberal of old

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Absolutely spot on - as has been remarked before.

From a European perspective, and although the meanings of the terms have changed over the last century, there is a common political vocabulary to describe socialism, liberalism and conservatism that appears to be largely alien with regards to the American vocabulary. Makes discussion difficult and, at times, frustrating...

Originally posted by whodey
Not so if you feel the unborn are "human".

As for issue such as drug use and prostitution and for gambling, I favor not criminizing them, rather, I favor the state making "declarations" that these things are "bad". For example, instead of the state legaliing these things and actually making money off them, they should be seen for what they are which is h ...[text shortened]... That way Big Brother is not in the mix except to be a moral compass for society at large.

As for issue such as drug use and prostitution and for gambling, I favor not criminizing them, rather, I favor the state making "declarations" that these things are "bad".

I don't think the state should be explicit about these activities being bad, they should give the people the facts and the possible consequences of prostitution and etc but they should stop there. Nobody wants a nanny state telling you what to do and what not to.

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Then define a social liberal. And a social conservative.

Originally posted by badmoon
Then define a [...] social conservative.

They have cummerbunds.

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I define "socialism" as any policies that involve a strong central government - policies that involve high levels of spending and-or regulation by the state

I define "conservative or right-wing socialism" as those areas of "big gummint" that are generally favored by the right wing -- national defense, tough on crime, strong family values.

I define "liberal or left-wing socialism" as those areas of "big gummint" that are generally favored by the left wing -- healthcare, education, welfare, social security, environment, and a value system that emphasizes "diversity".

when the word "socialism" is used, it usually refers to the left-wing variety - conservatives need to be more aware of the ways in which their own policies are "socialist".

libertarians are those who oppose (or are at least very skeptical of) both forms of "socialism"

Originally posted by Melanerpes
libertarians are those who oppose (or are at least very skeptical of) both forms of "socialism"

One could argue that Libertarianism is a form of sociopathy.

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you define socialism as "state ownership on behalf of the people".

But what do you think the modern military is? It's a huge amount of assets that is owned by the state and is used on behalf of the people, and not just to provide security against an enemy invasion. It's also a major provider of jobs (in some places, it's practically the only provider of jobs.)

Also - military recruitment focuses a lot on showing how the military will provide you with the skills and experiences that are highly sought by many employers. So basically, the military is selling itself as an ultra-huge jobs training program.

you define conservatism as "limited state intervention"

But what do you call it when the State uses large amounts of tax dollars to fund ambitious operations in places like Iraq? Whether you favor or opposed Bush's foreign policies, there was nothing "limited" about them.

That is why I use the term "conservative socialism" -- military and police programs are big state-owned and state-run operations that serve the people en masse, and they are not at all limited.

Originally posted by DrKF
Absolutely spot on - as has been remarked before.

From a European perspective, and although the meanings of the terms have changed over the last century, there is a common political vocabulary to describe socialism, liberalism and conservatism that appears to be largely alien with regards to the American vocabulary. Makes discussion difficult and, at times, frustrating...

I wonder if this confusion arises because, in the U.S., the central motivating idea for many conservatives is to "conserve" (perhaps preserve is a better word) our nation's adherence to the letter and spirit of the U.S. Constitution and our Declaration of Independence - documents which are chock full of liberal ideas, to be sure.

I'm not really referring to centrally planned economies, which would be an especially extreme form of socialism. I will define that as "uber-socialism"

But since prosperous modern states have a strong capitalist component. I'm assuming that capitalism is a major part of the equation. Within this framework, socialism involves favoring a strong "big gummint" component. Libertarianism involves the opposite. Those who favor "big gummint" often get into guns vs butter type disputes, but either way, it's still "gummint".

In all cases where the US government plays a strong role, there are going to be strong "US economic interests" that benefit. A government program that taxed gasoline would greatly benefit corporations that make electric cars. A program to get people to eat more fruits and vegetables would greatly benefit the farmers producing these crops. A program to allow more people to get healthcare would provide increased demand for the doctors and hospitals that provide that care. A program to expand grants to poor students would benefit universities.

the corporation that makes electric cars is no more or less of an economic interest (and no more or less inherently "evil" ) than a corporation that makes oil.