@sonhouse saidThe laws you seem to want Trump prosecuted under are all provisions of the Espionage Act, not the Rather Careless Handling of Documents Act (I used a similar line when right wingers wanted HRC charged under this law). Like Hillary, I don't think mere possession of such documents even if improperly done is sufficient for charges.
@no1marauder
Not even if it is proven he has TS/SCI docs which he should NEVER have outside a secure room? It goes, you get someone to give you an SCI document, which will be under lock and key in some briefcase, go to a SCIF room, open the document there, read it, the carrier puts the doc back in the case, locks it, takes it back to the vault.
It IS a VERY serious issue ...[text shortened]... dictator does it, FAKE NEWS, WITCH HUNT, PLANTED EVIDENCE.
What the FUK is wrong with this picture?
The real question is what is in the documents and why did Trump want to retain these specific ones, including not handing them over when they were subpoenaed in June. Until those questions are answered, I don't have a good feel for where this case is going absent speculation which I prefer not to do.
@no1marauder
You know the zombies are weaponizing this don't you?
The warrant does not specify it has to be secret or higher, that is not going to stop it, trump thinks saying he declassified the docs won't fly because it doesn't matter he did that or just thinks he did that. There was a reason Trump did not give up the last bunch and my guess is two fold, one, he was trying to sell them to the highest bidder and/or two, he KNEW it was HIGHLY illegal to have them in his possesion and was trying hide them. MONTHS went by with Trump refusing to turn them over, there had to be a reason for that and that reason probably has to do with money.
@no1marauder saidhttps://www.newsweek.com/heres-what-donald-trump-being-investigated-1733367
The laws you seem to want Trump prosecuted under are all provisions of the Espionage Act, not the Rather Careless Handling of Documents Act (I used a similar line when right wingers wanted HRC charged under this law). Like Hillary, I don't think mere possession of such documents even if improperly done is sufficient for charges.
The possible charges the FBI was investigating include "concealment", "removal" or "gathering" of classified documents. That may be vague but describes Trump nonetheless.
@vivify saidAre you sure about this, vivify??
Your point is that such records couldn't have been taken unless it was with the knowledge and consent of the NARA, right?
Keep in mind that the FBI had to prove to a judge that a possible criminal act had occurred in order to get a warrant. They had prove that such records were illegally taken and not "signed out". The judge obviously agreed, which is why the FBI was able to obtain a warrant.
"illegally taken". sounds fishy to me, vivify. How in the world could *anybody* walk away with these documents.
@sonhouse assures us that when one is done viewing the SCFI documents, they get put back in a briefcase, and put in a vault.
you sure about this?? how the hell did Trump get away with it? it seems the bigger issue is our lax security.
@sonhouse saidCopies.
@Earl-of-Trumps
Oh, you mean a bunch of boxes go out of the WH and you are to automatically assume they are top secret or higher documents? I guess the guards are supposed to have Xray vision......
THEY WERE COPIES YOU IDIOT. There were no missing docs in the vaults, that would have been a major clue. It is clear Trump had help and I imagine that dude got a nice paycheck.
What the bleep difference does it make? the INFORMATION has been taken out of where it is not supposed to leave.
You said so yourself. So again, SECURITY is the bigger issue here.
You *said*...
People examine (view) the docs, and when done, they docs are placed back into a briefcase and stored in a vault.
How the HELL can Trump make copies??? Did security allow Trump to make copies?
Another issue:
If Trump had been prewarned before in an FBI request for the documents, why didn't Trump either
return the documents or, hide them - get them the hell out of Mar a Lago because in this scenario Trump knows these are hot items
Lots of things to iron out here, genius.
@vivify saidSo what? These are Federal criminal statutes, felonies in fact, that require scienter i.e. "scienter is a defendant's knowledge that an act or conduct is wrongful and intent to act despite this knowledge." https://uk.practicallaw.thomsonreuters.com/w-000-3646?transitionType=Default&contextData=(sc.Default)&firstPage=true#:~:text=A%20legal%20term%20that%20refers,cases%20involving%20assertions%20of%20fraud.
https://www.newsweek.com/heres-what-donald-trump-being-investigated-1733367
The possible charges the FBI was investigating include "concealment", "removal" or "gathering" of classified documents. That may be vague but describes Trump nonetheless.
Simply having some documents or mishandling them is not going to satisfy that requirement nor is the AG likely to press charges under the Espionage Act, of all things, if that is all there is.
Anything more would be speculation but the why did Trump keep possession of certain documents and what, if anything, he intended to do with them seems more important than the ""concealment", "removal" or "gathering" of classified documents" done by a President albeit one who retained such documents after his term of office had ended.
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@no1marauder saidYou're making it seem like the absolute worst case scenario for Trump is that he just needs to give documents back. I'm simply pointing out there are more serious consequences that can be pursued.
So what? These are Federal criminal statutes, felonies in fact, that require scienter i.e. "scienter is a defendant's knowledge that an act or conduct is wrongful and intent to act despite this knowledge." https://uk.practicallaw.thomsonreuters.com/w-000-3646?transitionType=Default&contextData=(sc.Default)&firstPage=true#:~:text=A%20legal%20term%20that%20refers,cases%20in ...[text shortened]... ents" done by a President albeit one who retained such documents after his term of office had ended.
The standard that you pointed out may not have been met (yet) but the potential charges are more serious than what you've indicated.
@earl-of-trumps saidThat's like asking why a bank didn't know it was being embezzled. The bank's management should be questioned but it still doesn't change the fact that a crime was committed.
Are you sure about this, vivify??
"illegally taken". sounds fishy to me, vivify. How in the world could *anybody* walk away with these documents.
@sonhouse assures us that when one is done viewing the SCFI documents, they get put back in a briefcase, and put in a vault.
you sure about this?? how the hell did Trump get away with it? it seems the bigger issue is our lax security.
@vivify saidThe potential charges are the exact same ones that the DOJ decided not to pursue against Hillary for the reasons I stated.
You're making it seem like the absolute worst case scenario for Trump is that he just needs to give documents back. I'm simply pointing out there are more serious consequences that can be pursued.
The standard that you pointed out may not have been met (yet) but the potential charges are more serious than what you've indicated.
They are not going to pursue them against Trump either except perhaps as lesser charges if there is evidence of other crimes.
@no1marauder saidThat's assuming no evidence of criminal intent is found, like with Hillary. We'll see.
The potential charges are the exact same ones that the DOJ decided not to pursue against Hillary for the reasons I stated.
They are not going to pursue them against Trump either except perhaps as lesser charges if there is evidence of other crimes.
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@vivify saidDude, we are not talking about a bank being robbed here. We are talking nuclear documents protected by high level
That's like asking why a bank didn't know it was being embezzled. The bank's management should be questioned but it still doesn't change the fact that a crime was committed.
American intel and that have gone missing with the national archives not even knowing about it. Jeeesh!
And I am not trying to say that Trump is innocent. I am just trying to get a grasp of the whole situation. 15 boxes of docs...? c'mon
How could the national archives let all those classified docs get out of their control, and then not even know they are missing!
That's the first step to get a grasp of, IMO
@earl-of-trumps saidThe President of the USA ordered them to let him take them home and they knew about it a long time ago thats why they subpoena'd him
Dude, we are not talking about a bank being robbed here. We are talking nuclear documents protected by high level
American intel and that have gone missing with the national archives not even knowing about it. Jeeesh!
And I am not trying to say that Trump is innocent. I am just trying to get a grasp of the whole situation. 15 boxes of docs...? c'mon
How could the ...[text shortened]... ir control, and then not even know they are missing!
That's the first step to get a grasp of, IMO
@athousandyoung saidIt is my understanding that government officials only knew about the docs because of a whistle blower.
The President of the USA ordered them to let him take them home and they knew about it a long time ago thats why they subpoena'd him
@earl-of-trumps saidWhat led you to that understanding?
It is my understanding that government officials only knew about the docs because of a whistle blower.