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Debates Forum

  1. Joined
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    28 Jul '18 12:50
    Originally posted by @wolfe63
    Lester Holt interview. Trump stated precisely, why he fired Comey.
    Then you know I am correct.
  2. Standard memberDeepThought
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    28 Jul '18 14:46
    Originally posted by @kazetnagorra
    You like conspiracy theories... but not actual conspiracies, such as the conspiracy against the United States that took place on June 9, 2016 in Trump Tower.
    There's evidence for it, any self-respecting conspiracy will have no evidence for it, so there can't be a conspiracy. Well, I assume that's the reasoning anyway...
  3. Joined
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    28 Jul '18 22:00
    Originally posted by @deepthought
    There's evidence for it, any self-respecting conspiracy will have no evidence for it, so there can't be a conspiracy. Well, I assume that's the reasoning anyway...
    Attempted conspiracy? That is not an actual conspiracy. Duh!
  4. Subscriberno1marauder
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    28 Jul '18 23:27
    Originally posted by @metal-brain
    Attempted conspiracy? That is not an actual conspiracy. Duh!
    As usual, you don't know what you are talking about. The specific statute that Mueller has been charging the Russians with is 18 U.S.C. § 371—Conspiracy to Defraud the United States. Its elements are:

    1. Illegal agreement;
    2. Criminal intent;
    3. Overt act.

    All are easily satisfied by the events leading up to the Trump Tower meeting in June 2016:

    “If Trump knew in advance that the Russians had stolen information, and understood its importance, that puts him at risk, in legal jeopardy, of being part of the conspiracy that the Russians have been charged with to defraud the U.S.,” she said.

    http://fortune.com/2018/07/28/trump-donald-jr-russia-meeting/

    In addition, the Trump campaign officials (and Trump himself if a jury credited Cohen's testimony and any corroborating evidence) would be guilty of campaign finance violations which is satisfied by mere solicitation of "things of value" to impact an election:

    Here’s the second important passage of the statute: “No person shall knowingly solicit, accept, or receive from a foreign national any contribution or donation prohibited by [this law].”

    The key word from Trump Jr., according to University of California Irvine election law expert Rick Hasen, is “solicit,” which has a very specific meaning in this context. To quote the relevant statute:

    A solicitation is an oral or written communication that, construed as reasonably understood in the context in which it is made, contains a clear message asking, requesting, or recommending that another person make a contribution, donation, transfer of funds, or otherwise provide anything of value.

    Trump Jr. was clearly soliciting information that he knew was coming from a foreign source. Given that political campaigns regularly pay thousands of dollars to opposition researchers to dig up dirt, it seems like damaging information on Clinton would constitute something “of value” to the Trump campaign.

    The solicitation bit is why it doesn’t matter if Trump Jr. actually got useful information. The part that’s illegal, according to the experts I spoke to, is trying to acquire dirt on Clinton from a foreign source, not successfully acquiring it. And his statement more or less admits that he did, in fact, solicit this information.

    https://www.vox.com/world/2017/7/10/15950590/donald-trump-jr-new-york-times-illegal

    I've brought these legal facts to your attention probably a half dozen times at least. Why you keep insisting otherwise is a real puzzle.
  5. Joined
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    29 Jul '18 04:54
    Originally posted by @no1marauder
    As usual, you don't know what you are talking about. The specific statute that Mueller has been charging the Russians with is 18 U.S.C. § 371—Conspiracy to Defraud the United States. Its elements are:

    1. Illegal agreement;
    2. Criminal intent;
    3. Overt act.

    All are easily satisfied by the events leading up to the Trump Tower meeting in June 2016: ...[text shortened]... tention probably a half dozen times at least. Why you keep insisting otherwise is a real puzzle.
    Conspiracy to be lied to and have his time wasted? Child adoption is such a nefarious subject! The nerve!
    🙄
  6. Subscriberno1marauder
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    29 Jul '18 05:51
    Originally posted by @metal-brain
    Conspiracy to be lied to and have his time wasted? Child adoption is such a nefarious subject! The nerve!
    🙄
    Yes, that's what Donald Trump, Jr., Jared Kushner, Paul Manafort and representatives of the Russian government were interested in.

    Which is it: are you playing stupid or are you actually stupid?
  7. Joined
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    29 Jul '18 08:02
    Originally posted by @no1marauder
    Yes, that's what Donald Trump, Jr., Jared Kushner, Paul Manafort and representatives of the Russian government were interested in.

    Which is it: are you playing stupid or are you actually stupid?
    First of all it was obviously an entrapment scheme. Don Jr. did not contact the Russian liar, so the interest was solicited. Second, interest is not a conspiracy, especially if the interest is solicited on false pretenses.
    You are arguing intent and that is not enough. Listening to a liar talk is not a conspiracy. It is a conspiracy to entrap Don Jr. for sure, but not a conspiracy by him. You are arguing that the meeting itself is a conspiracy. That is a weak claim, especially since it was based on a lie to dupe Don Jr.

    Do you think it was an entrapment scheme? Be honest.
  8. Joined
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    29 Jul '18 08:06
    Originally posted by @no1marauder
    Yes, that's what Donald Trump, Jr., Jared Kushner, Paul Manafort and representatives of the Russian government were interested in.

    Which is it: are you playing stupid or are you actually stupid?
    Allegedly!

    I know you believe Trump himself knew of it and even I think that is likely, but that is not evidence. You know, if you cannot separate allegations from evidence you must be the one who is stupid. Are you really a lawyer? I don't think you really are one. A lawyer is unlikely to be as careless as you.
  9. Subscriberno1marauder
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    29 Jul '18 09:51
    Originally posted by @metal-brain
    First of all it was obviously an entrapment scheme. Don Jr. did not contact the Russian liar, so the interest was solicited. Second, interest is not a conspiracy, especially if the interest is solicited on false pretenses.
    You are arguing intent and that is not enough. Listening to a liar talk is not a conspiracy. It is a conspiracy to entrap Don Jr. ...[text shortened]... ce it was based on a lie to dupe Don Jr.

    Do you think it was an entrapment scheme? Be honest.
    "A solicitation is an oral or written communication that, construed as reasonably understood in the context in which it is made, contains a clear message asking, requesting, or recommending that another person make a contribution, donation, transfer of funds, or otherwise provide anything of value."

    Here's the exchange:

    Goldstone: The Crown prosecutor of Russia met with his father Aras this morning and in their meeting offered to provide the Trump campaign with some official documents and information that would incriminate Hillary and her dealings with Russia and would be very useful to your father.

    This is obviously very high level and sensitive information but is part of Russia and its government's support for Mr. Trump - helped along by Aras and Emin.

    What do you think is the best way to handle this information and would you be able to speak to Emin about it directly?

    Trump Jr.: if it's what you say I love it especially later in the summer. Could we do a call first thing next week when I am back?

    That's conspiracy, buckaroo.

    No, it wasn't entrapment and an entrapment defense would fail for reasons I already gave you several times even if these really weren't Russian agents - which they were. Natalia Veselnitskaya, the Russian lawyer at the meeting, admitted as much:

    in the interview with NBC News set to air on Friday, she says, "I am a lawyer, and I am an informant," and that since 2013, she has been "actively communicating with the office of the Russian prosecutor general."

    https://www.cnn.com/2018/04/27/politics/russian-lawyer-trump-tower-2016/index.html
  10. SubscriberWOLFE63
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    29 Jul '18 10:321 edit
    Originally posted by @metal-brain
    Allegedly!

    I know you believe Trump himself knew of it and even I think that is likely, but that is not evidence. You know, if you cannot separate allegations from evidence you must be the one who is stupid. Are you really a lawyer? I don't think you really are one. A lawyer is unlikely to be as careless as you.
    Samuel Johnson sarcastically quipped: "Patriotism is the last refuge of a scoundrel".

    In that vein, I declare: "Conspiracy theorism is the first shelter of a lost argument".
  11. Joined
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    29 Jul '18 13:31
    Originally posted by @wolfe63
    Samuel Johnson sarcastically quipped: "Patriotism is the last refuge of a scoundrel".

    In that vein, I declare: "Conspiracy theorism is the first shelter of a lost argument".
    Then why do you believe in conspiracy theories yourself? You are a hypocrite!
  12. Joined
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    29 Jul '18 13:35
    Originally posted by @no1marauder
    "A solicitation is an oral or written communication that, construed as reasonably understood in the context in which it is made, contains a clear message asking, requesting, or recommending that another person make a contribution, donation, transfer of funds, or otherwise provide anything of value."

    Here's the exchange:

    Goldstone: The Crown prosec ...[text shortened]... general."

    https://www.cnn.com/2018/04/27/politics/russian-lawyer-trump-tower-2016/index.html
    You are being illogical.

    You are claiming that the Russian liar is working for the Russian government to lie to Don Jr. and make him vulnerable to prosecution over nothing.

    Where is the motive for the Russian government to do that? It is absurd!
  13. Standard memberDeepThought
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    29 Jul '18 14:131 edit
    Originally posted by @metal-brain
    You are being illogical.

    You are claiming that the Russian liar is working for the Russian government to lie to Don Jr. and make him vulnerable to prosecution over nothing.

    Where is the motive for the Russian government to do that? It is absurd!
    A motive would be to put and keep the US in a state of political crisis for as long as possible. But more likely, they just weren't expecting the investigation.
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    29 Jul '18 14:31
    Originally posted by @metal-brain
    You are being illogical.

    You are claiming that the Russian liar is working for the Russian government to lie to Don Jr. and make him vulnerable to prosecution over nothing.

    Where is the motive for the Russian government to do that? It is absurd!
    It's a win-win situation for the Kremlin. Suppose that the public hadn't found out about the meeting. Then the Kremlin would have had compromising material on the Trumps, which could have been used to pressure them to ease sanctions or otherwise do the Kremlin's bidding. Now that the public did find out, it is part of the largest political crisis in the U.S. since the Second World War and severely weakens the U.S., its president and the standing of the U.S. in the world.
  15. Subscriberno1marauder
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    29 Jul '18 14:34
    Originally posted by @kazetnagorra
    It's a win-win situation for the Kremlin. Suppose that the public hadn't found out about the meeting. Then the Kremlin would have had compromising material on the Trumps, which could have been used to pressure them to ease sanctions or otherwise do the Kremlin's bidding. Now that the public did find out, it is part of the largest political crisis in th ...[text shortened]... orld War and severely weakens the U.S., its president and the standing of the U.S. in the world.
    The public didn't find out about the Trump Tower meeting of June 2016 for more than a year.
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