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Debates Forum

  1. Subscriber AThousandYoung
    Poor Filipov :,(
    11 Mar '11 20:27 / 2 edits
    This may belong in Culture, but I think it belongs here.

    I think it adds a great deal of insight to listen to the nature of the music associated with different wars. Specifically, I'm studying the defining songs of two wars that are often compared.

    Vietnam
    We Gotta Get Out Of This Place
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Io_6UtzBf28
    Images of Vietnam video

    War on Terror
    Bodies by Drowning Pool
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gGYUvnz954s
    "BAD" WORDS IN VIDEO OF FALLUJAH

    The music is completely different. One is a song for war weary conscripts, the other for enthusiastic, confident professionals.

    Was it simply the lack of conscription that changed military culture in this way? Is it the age old danger of the standing army that the American Founders feared so much, but aimed outside instead of inside? The Military Industrial Complex, etc.

    What does your nation (whatever it is) realistically NEED militarily?
  2. Standard member shavixmir
    Guppy poo
    14 Mar '11 07:19
    Originally posted by AThousandYoung
    This may belong in Culture, but I think it belongs here.

    I think it adds a great deal of insight to listen to the nature of the music associated with different wars. Specifically, I'm studying the defining songs of two wars that are often compared.

    Vietnam
    We Gotta Get Out Of This Place
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Io_6UtzBf28
    Images of ...[text shortened]... strial Complex, etc.

    What does your nation (whatever it is) realistically NEED militarily?
    The lack of conscription does change a lot. I agree on that.
    It also makes it more difficult to play into the guilt of the soldiers and their conduct (with Israel being an exception... although the drug abuse of ex-IDF'ers in Thailand and India could be a sign of guilt, it still doesn't resonate within their society in general).

    There is no war on terror. It's a fable. It's a PR stunt ala "wag the dog".
    There are wars for power, there are wars for resources and there are wars for land.

    Religion, terror, culture, "yours or mine" are means to an end.

    To answer your question: the Netherlands does not need a standing army as such. There is too much border and the countries around us produce far too many people to be able to actively fight against.
    The Dutch military should focus solely on training small groups of elite forces in setting up small groups of "resistance fighters". This way they can defend the country from within when the Netherlands is presented by a larger danger and can set up cells in other countries when the need arises.

    Far more effective and cost efficient.
  3. 14 Mar '11 10:01
    Originally posted by shavixmir
    The Dutch military should focus solely on training small groups of elite forces in setting up small groups of "resistance fighters". This way they can defend the country from within when the Netherlands is presented by a larger danger and can set up cells in other countries when the need arises.

    Far more effective and cost efficient.
    In my experience, trained fighters cause more problems than they are worth.
  4. Subscriber AThousandYoung
    Poor Filipov :,(
    14 Mar '11 18:50
    Originally posted by twhitehead
    In my experience, trained fighters cause more problems than they are worth.
    Mexico has similar experiences.
  5. 15 Mar '11 15:46 / 1 edit
    Originally posted by AThousandYoung
    This may belong in Culture, but I think it belongs here.

    I think it adds a great deal of insight to listen to the nature of the music associated with different wars. Specifically, I'm studying the defining songs of two wars that are often compared.

    Vietnam
    We Gotta Get Out Of This Place
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Io_6UtzBf28
    Images of strial Complex, etc.

    What does your nation (whatever it is) realistically NEED militarily?
    I would suggest that you listen to NoFX's War on Errorism album, while it is not a direct anti-war album, it is definitely a protest against the regime that took us into two wars. I would say that it is more along the lines of John Prine's Flag Decal.

    NoFX - Re-gaining Unconsciousness
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gU5gA6IcIpk

    John Prine - Flag Decal
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2lKtF5s0xRM

    But certainly having conscription creates a different level of fear in the populace. I am not old enough to have been draft eligible for Viet Nam, but I know a number of people who have spoken about having a low number or a high number and that feeling when the draft ended or of the fear while waiting to have your number called. If you read through the forums here you don't see a lot of sympathy for the soldiers that have gone off to these wars. I have seen them referred to as stupid quite often. I guess that is reflected in the music of today as well. In the Viet Nam era there was an us (young) against them (establishment) atmosphere that is lacking today.
  6. 15 Mar '11 16:05
    Originally posted by AThousandYoung
    This may belong in Culture, but I think it belongs here.

    I think it adds a great deal of insight to listen to the nature of the music associated with different wars. Specifically, I'm studying the defining songs of two wars that are often compared.

    Vietnam
    We Gotta Get Out Of This Place
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Io_6UtzBf28
    Images of ...[text shortened]... strial Complex, etc.

    What does your nation (whatever it is) realistically NEED militarily?
    you picked the songs. how does that make them significant?
  7. Subscriber AThousandYoung
    Poor Filipov :,(
    15 Mar '11 18:46 / 1 edit
    Originally posted by zeeblebot
    you picked the songs. how does that make them significant?
    "Bodies" was chosen by the troops, not me.

    http://www.psywarrior.com/MusicUsePSYOP.html

    If the military had its own version of the People’s Choice Awards, Drowning Pool would bring home hardware every year. Nearly every interrogator and soldier mentioned the band’s 2001 hit “Bodies” with its wild-eyed chorus, “Let the bodies hit the floor!” as a favorite for both psyching up American soldiers and psyching out enemies and captives


    Do you know of a similar Vietnam era song that inspired soldiers to be savage killers in the same way?
  8. Subscriber AThousandYoung
    Poor Filipov :,(
    17 Mar '11 19:10 / 1 edit
    Bombs Over Baghdad by Outkast
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wmY4FnxcN9E
  9. Standard member sh76
    Civis Americanus Sum
    21 Mar '11 13:16
    The song the soldiers sang as they marched off the World War III

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pklr0UD9eSo
  10. Subscriber AThousandYoung
    Poor Filipov :,(
    10 Apr '11 04:29
    Originally posted by CliffLandin
    NoFX - Re-gaining Unconsciousness
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gU5gA6IcIpk
    Interesting song. Trippy video!