Originally posted by cmsMasterYour statistic did not answer my question, which was why a housewife should be considered a second class citizen.
In any case it was a statistic, which isn't exactly easy to argue with.
As per your first question, hell no I didn't base all of this on one story told to me. It's just something that's caught my attention that seems plausible seeing how certain people act in high school. I don't have time to post a long, drawn out explanation right now (I might tomor ...[text shortened]... story, I was in the class, heard them say it, and even talked to them about it afterward.
Statistics in general are actually very easy to agrue with, as they can usually be twisted to mean whatever you want them to mean.
Somehow I fail to believe that half of the girls in your high school class stood up and said "I want to be second class citizen", unless you go to some scary evangelical indoctrination school that also teaches as a fact that women were made from one of man's ribs. In that case I could see it happening, but it would be very unrepresentative of the feelings of the population in general.
Originally posted by whiteroseHalf of the girls in that specific class - maybe out of 10 girls, and they said that they sometimes prefer it, and are not in any rush to go pushing for anything else right now. Women protested like mad in the 60's - what's happened since that point?
Your statistic did not answer my question, which was why a housewife should be considered a second class citizen.
Statistics in general are actually very easy to agrue with, as they can usually be twisted to mean whatever you want them to mean.
Somehow I fail to believe that half of the girls in your high school class stood up and said "I want to be sec ...[text shortened]... appening, but it would be very unrepresentative of the feelings of the population in general.
Public school, so no religion.
To answer your question - because she doesn't get paid - seems to make them look second class to many people, whether you or do not agree with it.
Originally posted by cmsMasterSo half of the girls in your class said that they wanted to be second class citizens, or that they wouldn't mind being housewives? Not being paid may make some people see housewives as second class, but this does not mean that it is true or that they see themselves that way. There is no reason why staying at home to take care of your family makes you any less of a person.
Half of the girls in that specific class - maybe out of 10 girls, and they said that they sometimes prefer it, and are not in any rush to go pushing for anything else right now. Women protested like mad in the 60's - what's happened since that point?
Public school, so no religion.
To answer your question - because she doesn't get paid - seems to make them look second class to many people, whether you or do not agree with it.
As for the money thing, many families in fact save money by having one parent stay at home, thus saving babysitting/daycare fees which can often amount to more than their salary.
CMS, you almost had it in an earlier post. The conventional role of the man as the provider has long been viewed (mostly by men) as the most important role in a family environment. Being a housewife was of secondary importance.
That's part of why women did all that protesting in the 60's and 70's. They were wrongly being viewed as second class because they were not the providers. That's crap of course because women can provide too. They made a lot of headway in gaining equality in the workplace and that has given them the opportunity prove themselves as equals.
Problem is, somewhere along the way even a lot of women began to look down on housewifes. Likely because they weren't attempting attempting to "improve" themselves or their place in the world which was then quickly becoming the norm. Many even still see that as being lazy.
Thus, we arrive at the sole problem that arose from feminism. Housewives became, in some ways, even less respected then they had been before. (stereotypically) That problem still has not been entirely corrected. The stigma of housewives not being as important or being second class. (Basically that's just a way to say lazy and lazy is rightfully viewed as a second class trait.) Nothing could be further from the truth. Being a mother is about as important a job as any. We are slowly re-learning this as a society.
One of the reasons this is so slow to come around us because its grouped in with "family values". The country is tired of being hit over the head with the family values arguement so it gets ignored before viewing its merits just because its a family values arguement.
And THAT is the one major problem with the family values arguement. It gets over used and loses its importance when it really is a very powerful arguement. Ironically, it might be the best tool for awakening America to the importance of motherhood. Being a housewife goes hand in hand with motherhood. Babysitter or no babysitter. Daycare or no daycare. Its still the mother that's housewife. Even if she has a full time job. And after the country comes around to that we then get to begin the process for fathers. And once we appreciate the fact that a father figure is equally important to a young child we might catch a break from family values. Then of course, we forget the hard learned lessons and get to start the cycle again.
I'm getting dizzy just thinking about it....
Originally posted by MerkMerk, this is pretty sharp for a doe caught in the headlights of supreme youthful arrogance. When the master learns some humility and is married or cohabits with someone long enough to have offspring I think he will be ready to understand the fantasy of his assumptions. Best of luck in your attempt at illumination anyway.
CMS, you almost had it in an earlier post. The conventional role of the man as the provider has long been viewed (mostly by men) as the most important role in a family environment. Being a housewife was of secondary importance.
That's part of why women did all that protesting in the 60's and 70's. They were wrongly being viewed as second class because they ...[text shortened]... ns and get to start the cycle again.
I'm getting dizzy just thinking about it....
Originally posted by kmax87Youth, man oh man how I wish I didn't have to worry about going to prison anymore.
Merk, this is pretty sharp for a doe caught in the headlights of supreme youthful arrogance. When the master learns some humility and is married or cohabits with someone long enough to have offspring I think he will be ready to understand the fantasy of his assumptions. Best of luck in your attempt at illumination anyway.
Originally posted by MerkI think that I have been portrayed as extremely sexist from this thread - which isn't the case at all.
CMS, you almost had it in an earlier post. The conventional role of the man as the provider has long been viewed (mostly by men) as the most important role in a family environment. Being a housewife was of secondary importance.
That's part of why women did all that protesting in the 60's and 70's. They were wrongly being viewed as second class because they ...[text shortened]... ns and get to start the cycle again.
I'm getting dizzy just thinking about it....
My argument is NOT and has never been that housewives are second class, but that women are treated as second class and are fine with it.
They are treated as second class citizens all the time, lets consider a few examples. First, watch MTV, and tell me that most men view women as equals. How about the Supreme Court, women make up 52% of the population - so why isn't this represented? Statistics say that women get appx. $.67 for every $1.00 that a man makes. Do these things make women sound like first class citizens? No, it's got nothing to do with being a housewife. Hell, women didn't even have suffrage until the 1920's - even the blacks, who were OWNED AS PROPERTY beat them to this right.
We treat women as second class citizens very often - and women seem to be ok with it.
Originally posted by kmax87When I learn some humility!? My last post explains everything - tell me how those assumptions aren't true.
Merk, this is pretty sharp for a doe caught in the headlights of supreme youthful arrogance. When the master learns some humility and is married or cohabits with someone long enough to have offspring I think he will be ready to understand the fantasy of his assumptions. Best of luck in your attempt at illumination anyway.
Originally posted by cmsMasterNo, women are not OK with their rights being unequal to men. Hence feminism.
I think that I have been portrayed as extremely sexist from this thread - which isn't the case at all.
My argument is NOT and has never been that housewives are second class, but that women are treated as second class and are fine with it.
They are treated as second class citizens all the time, lets consider a few examples. First, watch MTV, and tel ...[text shortened]... t.
We treat women as second class citizens very often - and women seem to be ok with it.
Originally posted by cmsMasterUmmm..... I think we have a misunderstanding. I don't think you're a sexist. Maybe some have jumped to conclusions, but not I Master.
I think that I have been portrayed as extremely sexist from this thread - which isn't the case at all.
My argument is NOT and has never been that housewives are second class, but that women are treated as second class and are fine with it.
They are treated as second class citizens all the time, lets consider a few examples. First, watch MTV, and tel ...[text shortened]... t.
We treat women as second class citizens very often - and women seem to be ok with it.
I should have made my point instead of being so long winded. Many women understand the importance being a mother and a housewife and are just not vocal about the lack of respect or poor treatment it gets them. They know full well the stigma attached to it and do it anyway because they understand that what they are doing is right. Surely you have been looked down on for something you've done or are doing and continue to do it anyway without raising a stink about it because you know you're right? Chess for instance. There is a huge nerd stigma assigned chess players. Sometimes we don't stand up for ourselves because many people who don't understand, never will and it would be a waste to try to inform them.
None of them like it and yes, it could seem that they are fine with it if you dont look into the matter. You are not off your rocker in your observation, you just need to peel back the top layer of societies ignorance. When you do, you will find a voice calling for change one that you will then find is never far out of earshot.
As for women in the workplace its pretty much the same thing. I can almost promise that you will never find a woman in the workplace that us fine with being underpaid.
Getting back to respect for mothers. I only have one word. MILF's. Nobody gets more respect.