Originally posted by cmsMasterI am sure single mothers would have something to say about the feeling of responsibility. . . Even in the supposedly developed Western world they are sometimes made to feel like second class citizens. . .
Sigh, I wish that thread hadn't disappeared.
I mean in general, so one or two specific examples of a handful of people to whom this doesn't apply won't really add anything.
There's a lot to support that women enjoy being second class citizens, they simply don't have to worry about responsibility as much as men. Sure, not always true, but there are women that think like that.
Originally posted by EAPOEHow are they made to feel that way. It seems to me that many put that upon themselves.
I am sure single mothers would have something to say about the feeling of responsibility. . . Even in the supposedly developed Western world they are sometimes made to feel like second class citizens. . .
Originally posted by cmsMasterI just looked at the removed thread. In no uncertain terms you said that, with a handful of exceptions, women & balck weresecond class citizens because they were lazy, leaving teh work to the white men. Sexist and racist which made your thread moderatable.
BTW, does anyone know why the original thread got deleted?
Originally posted by belgianfreakHow do you access removed threads?
I just looked at the removed thread. In no uncertain terms you said that, with a handful of exceptions, women & balck weresecond class citizens because they were lazy, leaving teh work to the white men. Sexist and racist which made your thread moderatable.
Originally posted by belgianfreakHm, I may have worded things poorly - but in America it's pretty often that they are treated as second class citizens, or at least it's a common conception. Still inane that it got modded for that when there was a thread right below mine that said that women are dependent on men...
I just looked at the removed thread. In no uncertain terms you said that, with a handful of exceptions, women & balck weresecond class citizens because they were lazy, leaving teh work to the white men. Sexist and racist which made your thread moderatable.
Actually, I think you're touching on a larger subject. There is some pretty solid scientific evidence that people in general - regardless of race or sex - have a built in positive response to authority. Its comforting to have a strong positive leader and natural to want to follow that person. This is not the case with all people of course and less positive toward bad leaders. If given a choice, its common to believe that the majority of people would choose to follow, not lead. Your question could now be broken down into two different, more specific questions.
1. Do women in general, perhaps due to their natural instinct to nurture, more actively seek nurturing from men or men with a strong leadership instinct - in return for their nurturing - than men seek from women?
2. Are blacks, perhaps due to extensive social programs and societal acceptance, more likely to be dependent than other minorities who's cultures place more importance on independence?
I think the main reason for the lack of response on this is how the question was formulated. Its tough to debate a point that is not specific. It gets all messy and off track and stuff. Plus, the racial tension thingy and the man vs. woman thingy get people all scared.
Originally posted by MerkI don't know how I can be any more specific to be honest. In any case Der Schwarze's thread is very similar, and apparently more specific.
Actually, I think you're touching on a larger subject. There is some pretty solid scientific evidence that people in general - regardless of race or sex - have a built in positive response to authority. Its comforting to have a strong positive leader and natural to want to follow that person. This is not the case with all people of course and less positive towa ...[text shortened]... and stuff. Plus, the racial tension thingy and the man vs. woman thingy get people all scared.
I have never met a person who did not want to be liked or treated fairly.
I have never met a person who did not want to be successful.
I have never met a person who likes to be abused, insulted, or be considered inferior.
What I have said transcends race, gender, or personality type.
I’ve tutored a few kids who have had problems with schoolwork, and kids who have come from other countries, who have trouble speaking English, and have problems with their schoolwork, and from my experience, this is what I have found to be true.
This is true, regardless of media; for example, MTV, and some advertisements present a portrayal not representative of groups of people; i.e. showing women as promiscuous, etc&hellip😉 These negative stereotypes are purposely presented, although I am not sure why, but I am sure that the companies that do this are out to make money. We are constantly bombarded by the media in society; the media largely affects our perception of reality. I wish the media, then, would be more responsible to promote the right principles.
Studies have shown that intelligence(s) transcends race or gender. I’ll present those studies out of my psychology textbook if you wish, at a later time.
Cultures differ; that is true – but people do not like to feel inferior (or as you put it, ‘second-class&rsquo😉; in history, we find that there have been many wars, in part, because of the failure to understand this point – and essentially, in our failure to understand and accept people regardless of race, culture, gender, beliefs, etc. People are much happier when they feel they have control over their lives (when they are not dependent on other people); hence, the happiest groups of people in the world tend to be the ones that live in democracies.
Originally posted by YugaI'm not sure that's completely true though, Yuga. I'll agree, I for one do NOT want to be looked at as inferior in any way. It just doesn't make sense to most people, who wants to come second?
I have never met a person who did not want to be liked or treated fairly.
I have never met a person who did not want to be successful.
I have never met a person who likes to be abused, insulted, or be considered inferior.
What I have said transcends race, gender, or personality type.
I’ve tutored a few kids who have had problems with schoolwork, and ...[text shortened]... hence, the happiest groups of people in the world tend to be the ones that live in democracies.
However, second class citizenship confuses things a little more than that. I'll give a real life example as told by one of my teachers.
We'll call my teacher Mr. A and the student B. Student B is a black high school student.
Mr. A brings a statistic into class showing that most people on welfare are actually white, not black. He does this to show to the class an example of a false prejudice. Student B gets mad at him, and tells him he's a liar. She is adament about this point, and refuses to believe otherwise.
What is the rationale for Student B's behaviour? It's simple, if people believe that black citizens are poor, and need welfare more than other minorities than they will have better opportunities for it, and for other financial benefit, i.e. financial aid for colleges.
You'll have to trust that my story is true, as I trusted the teacher that told it to me. However, the point is clear, there may be benefits to being a "second class citizen" whether or not people dislike feeling inferior.
Originally posted by cmsMasterAre you seriously argueing that women and blacks want to be second class citizens, based solely on one story told to you secondhand (which may or may not be true)? Do you realise how ridiculous that sounds?
I'm not sure that's completely true though, Yuga. I'll agree, I for one do NOT want to be looked at as inferior in any way. It just doesn't make sense to most people, who wants to come second?
However, second class citizenship confuses things a little more than that. I'll give a real life example as told by one of my teachers.
We'll call my teache ...[text shortened]... ts to being a "second class citizen" whether or not people dislike feeling inferior.
Let's say that your story has a grain of truth. Perhaps student B is a proud black student who believes that black people are often denied jobs or given lower wages based on their race, forcing a higher percentage onto welfare(which is, to some degree, true). By saying that this isn't the case, the teacher is in fact denying that it is often harder for black students (especially poor black students) to achieve the earning power (and therefore success, according to the capitalistic model), of white students. That would probably make me angry, too. People don't want to be second class citizens, but it is even worse when someone treats you like you are second class, and then tries to tell you that they didn't (the glass ceiling effect).
Originally posted by whiteroseIn any case it was a statistic, which isn't exactly easy to argue with.
Are you seriously argueing that women and blacks want to be second class citizens, based solely on one story told to you secondhand (which may or may not be true)? Do you realise how ridiculous that sounds?
Let's say that your story has a grain of truth. Perhaps student B is a proud black student who believes that black people are often denied jobs or giv ...[text shortened]... ou are second class, and then tries to tell you that they didn't (the glass ceiling effect).
As per your first question, hell no I didn't base all of this on one story told to me. It's just something that's caught my attention that seems plausible seeing how certain people act in high school. I don't have time to post a long, drawn out explanation right now (I might tomorrow if I feel like it...) but this question has been posed in a class of mine before - and believe it or not whiterose (although this is definitely fact) at least half of the girls in the class agreed that a lot of females want to be second-class citizens, some even admitting that they like the benefits. This one isn't a secondhand story, I was in the class, heard them say it, and even talked to them about it afterward.
Originally posted by cmsMasterPlease define what you mean by a 'second-class' citizen.
I didn't base all of this on one story told to me. It's just something that's caught my attention that seems plausible seeing how certain people act in high school. at least half of the girls in the class agreed that a lot of females want to be second-class citizens, some even admitting that they like the benefits. This one isn't a secondhand story, I was in the class, heard them say it, and even talked to them about it afterward.