21 Apr 12
Originally posted by Metal BrainWhen I left Cleveland in 1994, city buses were being converted from diesel to natural gas, a pleasant change if you ever followed closely a diesel bus. As I understand it, this works very well for the fleet owner who has to install one tank and one pump, but may be very expensive to implement as a nationwide infrastructure addition, just like electric plug ins.
Will they catch on or will the price of gasoline drop when they start to?
http://www.consumerreports.org/cro/2012/03/the-natural-gas-alternative/index.htm
http://automobiles.honda.com/civic-natural-gas/
21 Apr 12
Originally posted by normbenignSome people have home access, but that comes with some complications as well.
When I left Cleveland in 1994, city buses were being converted from diesel to natural gas, a pleasant change if you ever followed closely a diesel bus. As I understand it, this works very well for the fleet owner who has to install one tank and one pump, but may be very expensive to implement as a nationwide infrastructure addition, just like electric plug ins.
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If you choose to fill up with a home system:
An advantage of refueling stations over a home unit is that the gas is already pressurized, so the tank can be filled in a matter of minutes. Gas fed to the home is under very low pressure. The home refill device acts as both a pump and a compressor, which is why it takes overnight to fill the tank. But refueling at home can cost much less than a refueling station, so it can be worth the wait, especially if the refueling is done overnight. Of course, it would take time for the payback of the initial unit cost and installation. Also, installation is likely to require a building permit.
21 Apr 12
Originally posted by Metal BrainThere are lots of good alternative ideas for motor fuel. The best I've heard was promoted by a governor from Montana or Idaho some years ago, that of using the decades old Nazi developed liquefying of coal. This idea was squelched, although the reason it laid dormant for decades is that oil was too cheap. Oil at $36 a barrel or higher, makes the coal option profitable.
Some people have home access, but that comes with some complications as well.
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If you choose to fill up with a home system:
An advantage of refueling stations over a home unit is that the gas is already pressurized, so the tank can be filled in a matter of minutes. Gas fed to the home ...[text shortened]... e initial unit cost and installation. Also, installation is likely to require a building permit.
21 Apr 12
Originally posted by PanifisThat involves The Fischer–Tropsch process. Very interesting.
Coal to petrol has been done for years by SASOL in South-Africa (helped along by sanctions preventing the import of oil). You can check it out on wikipedia: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SASOL
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fischer-Tropsch_process
22 Apr 12
Originally posted by Metal BrainIt is perfectly workable, and as I understand it doesn't require any reworking of the vehicle fleet or delivery systems. The US has huge domestic coal reserves, and oil is way past $36 a barrel.
That involves The Fischer–Tropsch process. Very interesting.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fischer-Tropsch_process
22 Apr 12
Originally posted by EladarCoal based motor fuel is extremely clean burning. Using it for motor fuel and converting coal fired electric plants to natural gas would seem logical. There are also some safety issues with engineering a natural gas car.
Natual gas is the best solution the US has for transportation. We will be using our own energy and keeping all that money in the US economy. Natural gas is much cleaner than either oil or coal based products.
22 Apr 12
Originally posted by normbenignThe Fischer–Tropsch process can also be used to convert natural gas into liquid fuel, not just coal. The Fischer–Tropsch process is potentially a solution to having to build separate fueling stations for filling vehicles to utilize natural gas.
It is perfectly workable, and as I understand it doesn't require any reworking of the vehicle fleet or delivery systems. The US has huge domestic coal reserves, and oil is way past $36 a barrel.
We can have both.
23 Apr 12
Originally posted by Metal BrainSounds good, if you could get Obama and his phony environmentalist cronies out of the way.
The Fischer–Tropsch process can also be used to convert natural gas into liquid fuel, not just coal. The Fischer–Tropsch process is potentially a solution to having to build separate fueling stations for filling vehicles to utilize natural gas.
We can have both.
28 Apr 12
Originally posted by normbenignAn important point !
One of the screwball things about electric cars that makes my hair hurt is that the electricity is largely produced by coal fired electric plants. Does it matter when or where the emission are made, or if they come from a tail pipe or smokestack?
Clearly it is easier to implement emission reducing measures at a (relatively speaking) limited number of coal plants than at every exhaust pipe in the world.
But as long as we rely on fosile carbon hydrates in the form of natural gas, oil etc it's not going to change the overall equation that much (appart from inner city polution, but that's an other issue).
The truly promising thing about electric cars is that they can allow us to move from a transport system that by necessity is going to run on fosile fuels. This burning of fosile fuels is steadily releasing the carbon dioxide that was taken out of the earths eco system some 300mio years ago. The earth was a warmer place at that time.
Instead we would have a transport system that can tap in to a number of future energy sources, be it wind, solar or fusion that comes out as the ultimate winner.
28 Apr 12
Originally posted by normbenignRight. Coal is not a clean fuel when burned either and for the people concerned about carbon emissions coal is heavy with carbon and natural gas is light on carbon for a fossil fuel.
One of the screwball things about electric cars that makes my hair hurt is that the electricity is largely produced by coal fired electric plants. Does it matter when or where the emission are made, or if they come from a tail pipe or smokestack?
Even the global warming alarmists can tout natural gas as a decent alternative fuel if they think global warming is a bigger concern than fracking.