North Africa

Originally posted by AThousandYoung
So how come North Korea's malnourished, brainwashed, impoverished population is starting to show signs of resistance?

They haven't yet, as far as I know, taken to the streets of Pyongyang in massive destabilising riots.

Originally posted by Teinosuke
http://www.imf.org/external/pubs/ft/survey/so/2010/car091010a.htm

"In its annual health check of Tunisia’s economy, the IMF said that growth is expected to reach 3.8 percent in 2010, after slowing to 3 percent in 2009 as the global downturn took its toll. But unemployment has begun to rise, after having fallen to 12.4 percent in 2007, and at 13.3 percen breadth and success of the protests suggest to me that they combine to form a majority.

I don't care about GNP or GDP "growth". Such a figure tells you nothing about the economic conditions of the average Tunisian esp. the working class.

An economy with 13% unemployment is operating at near depression levels no matter how much income "growth" is going to its elites.

The IMF is a bunch of Friedmanites who's analyses aren't worth jack. Let's see we have a country with very high unemployment what public policies should be pursued:

Maintaining a stable macroeconomic environment that promotes employment and growth also requires determined expenditure control, the IMF assessment said. Key for success in this area is the reform of the social security system. To this end, the authorities are in discussion with social partners on pension reforms to buttress the pension system’s financial sustainability. The government should also explore ways to contain subsidies of food and fuel products, the report noted.

Cut pensions. Cut food and fuel subsidies. The same war on the working class and poor that has been the IMF mission for decades.

The IMF is a bunch of Friedmanites who's analyses aren't worth jack.

I didn't quote any analysis from the IMF - only their statistics. Are you telling me that their statistics are wrong?

I don't care about GNP or GDP "growth". Such a figure tells you nothing about the economic conditions of the average Tunisian esp. the working class.

That is more or less what I said myself - Tunisia's increasing wealth isn't filtering through to everyone. Except that rather than talking about "the average Tunisian", I think it's more useful to think about the various groups involved in these protests, some of whom are working-class, some of whom are not.

Originally posted by Teinosuke
[b]The IMF is a bunch of Friedmanites who's analyses aren't worth jack.

I didn't quote any analysis from the IMF - only their statistics. Are you telling me that their statistics are wrong?

I don't care about GNP or GDP "growth". Such a figure tells you nothing about the economic conditions of the average Tunisian esp. the working class.
ups involved in these protests, some of whom are working-class, some of whom are not.[/b]

Their figures are worthless like the IMF is. Their instructions to the ruling elite in Tunisia are typical and to the extent they were followed probably contributed to the regime's overthrow. In a just world, the plutocrats' lackeys at the IMF would be next in line at a Tunisian guillotine.

What would be "more useful" is not repeating claptrap like increasing wealth leads to increased resistance against dictators or quoting GDP growth rates as indicative of the economic situation "enjoyed" by the majority of a country's population.

What would be "more useful" is not repeating claptrap like increasing wealth leads to increased resistance against dictators or quoting GDP growth rates as indicative of the economic situation "enjoyed" by the majority of a country's population.

If you'd actually bothered to read my post properly, you might have registered that that was precisely what I didn't do - I quoted GDP growth only as indicative of the total wealth of the nation, not of individual citizens, and in the very next sentence, acknowledged that it wasn't trickling down to the majority, using the high and rising unemployment rate as evidence of this failure.

I agree with you that the IMF's prescriptions are largely wicked; I don't however see that that's a reason to dispute their statistics. Nor do I understand why you're so unwilling to acknowledge that there are multiple forces as work behind the Tunisian revolution.

Originally posted by Teinosuke
[b]What would be "more useful" is not repeating claptrap like increasing wealth leads to increased resistance against dictators or quoting GDP growth rates as indicative of the economic situation "enjoyed" by the majority of a country's population.

If you'd actually bothered to read my post properly, you might have registered that that was precisely o acknowledge that there are multiple forces as work behind the Tunisian revolution.[/b]

I didn't "dispute their statistics" - I disputed that GNP or GDP growth rates are indicative of the situation of most people in an economy with very high unemployment. If you agree with that, why bother to quote such a figure?

To the extent you kept saying "Tunisia is getting wealthier" you are guilty of fetishism.

Originally posted by no1marauder
I didn't "dispute their statistics" - I disputed that GNP or GDP growth rates are indicative of the situation of most people in an economy with very high unemployment. If you agree with that, why bother to quote such a figure?

It sounded like you were disputing their statistics when you said that "Their figures are worthless." However, I "bothered to quote such a figure" merely because it was there in the short paragraph that I copied and pasted from their website right next to the unemployment statistics.

Embattled President Hosni Mubarak fired his Cabinet early Saturday and promised reforms after protesters engulfed his country in chaos — battling police with stones and firebombs, burning down the ruling party headquarters and defying a night curfew enforced by a military deployment...

Pouring onto the streets after Friday noon prayers, protesters ignored extreme government measures that included cutting off the Internet and mobile-phone services in Cairo and other areas

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/ml_egypt_protest

Hmm, that should have cut off their ability to organize the riot and it should have disbursed. I wonder how they managed without Facebook?

😛

From the link...

Once-unimaginable scenes of anarchy along the Nile played out on television and computer screens from Algiers to Riyadh, two weeks to the day after protesters in Tunisia drove out their autocratic president. Images of the protests in the smaller North African country emboldened Egyptians to launch four straight days of increasingly fearless demonstrations organized over mobile phone, Facebook and Twitter.

Around Cairo, people looted banks, smashed cars, tore down street signs and pelted armored riot police vehicles with paving stones torn from roadways.

Demonstrators wielding rocks, glass and sticks chased hundreds of riot police away from the main square in downtown Cairo and several of the policemen stripped off their uniforms and badges and joined the demonstrators...

Some of the most serious violence Friday was in Suez, where protesters seized weapons stored in a police station and asked the policemen inside to leave the building before they burned it down. They also set ablaze about 20 police trucks parked nearby. Demonstrators exchanged fire with policemen trying to stop them from storming another police station and one protester was killed in the gun battle.

The American Empire's North African "Iron Curtain" is perhaps about to fall...? Whatever shall the U.S. do if its trusty autocratic client states were to actually be co-opted by the people?

How much longer can Mubarak hold on? Doesn't he know he's making Western stock markets fall? How selfish can you get?

The word from the Arab "street":

Mahmoud Mohammed Imam, a 26-year-old taxi driver, said: "We were hoping that he was delivering a speech to tell us he was leaving."

"All he said were empty promises and lies. He appointed a new government of thieves, one thief goes and one thief comes to loot the country."

"This is the revolution of the people who are hungry, this is the revolution of the people who have no money against those with a lot of money."

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/41323843/ns/world_news-mideastn_africa

Originally posted by Soothfast
The American Empire's North African "Iron Curtain" is perhaps about to fall...? Whatever shall the U.S. do if its trusty autocratic client states were to actually be co-opted by the people?

I think it's unlikely that we'll see the kind of domino effect we witnessed in the former Soviet Union and its client states in the Middle East - since local conditions differ. For instance, I suspect that the monarchies of Jordan and Morocco are likely to survive, as they appear to have quite strong support in certain sectors of the population. But I may yet be proved wrong. We'll see what happens in the rest of the region if Murbarak falls.

Originally posted by Teinosuke
I think it's unlikely that we'll see the kind of domino effect we witnessed in the former Soviet Union and its client states in the Middle East - since local conditions differ. For instance, I suspect that the monarchies of Jordan and Morocco are likely to survive, as they appear to have quite strong support in certain sectors of the population. But I may yet be proved wrong. We'll see what happens in the rest of the region if Murbarak falls.

All autocratic governments have " quite strong support in certain sectors of the population". This does not save them from the people in the long run.

Originally posted by no1marauder
All autocratic governments have " quite strong support in certain sectors of the population". This does not save them from the people in the long run.

Believe it or not, those supporters are also part of "the people".

Originally posted by Teinosuke
Believe it or not, those supporters are also part of "the people".

Yes, so are the dictators if you want to be technical. But you're perfectly aware of what I meant.