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  1. Standard member wittywonka
    Chocolate Expert
    23 Mar '14 06:43 / 1 edit
    A recent article in The Atlantic reports a study that concludes that parents' involvement in their kids' education doesn't appear to have a demonstrable, immediate effect on their kids' success in school, in terms of test scores, even when measured across a wide range of variables.

    http://m.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2014/04/and-dont-help-your-kids-with-their-homework/358636/

    Here's an excerpt:

    Most measurable forms of parental involvement seem to yield few academic dividends for kids, or even to backfire—regardless of a parent’s race, class, or level of education.

    Do you review your daughter’s homework every night? Robinson and Harris’s data, published in The Broken Compass: Parental Involvement With Children’s Education, show that this won’t help her score higher on standardized tests. Once kids enter middle school, parental help with homework can actually bring test scores down, an effect Robinson says could be caused by the fact that many parents may have forgotten, or never truly understood, the material their children learn in school.

    Similarly, students whose parents frequently meet with teachers and principals don’t seem to improve faster than academically comparable peers whose parents are less present at school. Other essentially useless parenting interventions: observing a kid’s class; helping a teenager choose high-school courses; and, especially, disciplinary measures such as punishing kids for getting bad grades or instituting strict rules about when and how homework gets done. [...]

    One of the reasons parental involvement in schools has become dogma is that the government actively incentivizes it. Since the late 1960s, the federal government has spent hundreds of millions of dollars on programs that seek to engage parents—especially low-income parents—with their children’s schools. In 2001, No Child Left Behind required schools to establish parent committees and communicate with parents in their native languages. The theory was that more active and invested mothers and fathers could help close the test-score gap between middle-class and poor students. Yet until the new study, nobody had used the available data to test the assumption that close relationships between parents and schools improve student achievement. [...]

    What’s more, although conventional wisdom holds that poor children do badly in school because their parents don’t care about education, the opposite is true. Across race, class, and education level, the vast majority of American parents report that they speak with their kids about the importance of good grades and hope that they will attend college. [...]

    Robinson and Harris posit that greater financial and educational resources allow some parents to embed their children in neighborhoods and social settings in which they meet many college-educated adults with interesting careers. Upper-middle-class kids aren’t just told a good education will help them succeed in life. They are surrounded by family and friends who work as doctors, lawyers, and engineers and who reminisce about their college years around the dinner table. [...]

    All in all, these findings should relieve anxious parents struggling to make time to volunteer at the PTA bake sale. But valuing parental involvement via test scores alone misses one of the ways in which parents most impact schools. Pesky parents are often effective, especially in public schools, at securing better textbooks, new playgrounds, and all the “extras” that make an educational community come to life, like art, music, theater, and after-school clubs. This kind of parental engagement may not directly affect test scores, but it can make school a more positive place for all kids, regardless of what their parents do or don’t do at home.

    ___

    Any thoughts as to the implications of these findings? I'm personally interested to see if this has potential to reframe the discussion as to how decentralized the overall education system ought to be.
  2. 23 Mar '14 10:56
    So the only value parents have is raising more money for public schools?

    Sounds bout right to me coming from a left winged perspective.
  3. Standard member wittywonka
    Chocolate Expert
    23 Mar '14 14:23
    Originally posted by whodey
    So the only value parents have is raising more money for public schools?

    Sounds bout right to me coming from a left winged perspective.
    It didn't look at emotional outcomes--e.g., is a child happier in school if her parents are more involved--so its conclusions aren't quite as broad in scope as you make out to be. It's just claiming that parents aren't as effective at helping their kids do well in school as they might have thought, all things considered.
  4. 23 Mar '14 18:24
    Parents do more by their actions than they do with words. Telling kids that school is important is meaningless. Bringing up kids who respect authority and are willing to put forth effort to achieve goals is much more important than telling kids school is important. From what I've read of the article, it as made by fools.
  5. 23 Mar '14 18:31
    Originally posted by wittywonka
    A recent article in The Atlantic reports a study that concludes that parents' involvement in their kids' education doesn't appear to have a demonstrable, immediate effect on their kids' success in school, in terms of test scores, even when measured across a wide range of variables.

    http://m.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2014/04/and-dont-help- ...[text shortened]... tial to reframe the discussion as to how decentralized the overall education system ought to be.
    This is a left wing opinion, denying the common wisdom that involved parents help children in school. The left wing would be happy to remove parents entirely, and take over custody and raising of children entirely, or transfer it to people they are appropriately satisfied with.

    The entire education system, K-12 thru college is almost entirely left wing indoctrination. Home schooled children represent the highest level of parental involvement, and they demonstrate far higher outcomes than either public or private school achievement.
  6. 23 Mar '14 18:32
    Originally posted by wittywonka
    It didn't look at emotional outcomes--e.g., is a child happier in school if her parents are more involved--so its conclusions aren't quite as broad in scope as you make out to be. It's just claiming that parents aren't as effective at helping their kids do well in school as they might have thought, all things considered.
    How much help parents can give is often limited by the parent's level of achievement was.
  7. Standard member wittywonka
    Chocolate Expert
    23 Mar '14 20:48
    Originally posted by Eladar
    From what I've read of the article, it as (sic) made by fools.
    Please point out a specific, substantive concern you have with the methodology or the conclusion of the article, rather than making unsubstantiated value statements.
  8. Standard member wittywonka
    Chocolate Expert
    23 Mar '14 20:52
    Originally posted by normbenign
    How much help parents can give is often limited by the parent's level of achievement was.
    If you acknowledge this, then why would you disagree with an argument for centralizing education, at least to a degree (nobody's seriously talking about forcibly removing kids from their parents).
  9. Standard member wittywonka
    Chocolate Expert
    23 Mar '14 21:01
    Originally posted by normbenign
    Home schooled children represent the highest level of parental involvement, and they demonstrate far higher outcomes than either public or private school achievement.
    Support?
  10. 23 Mar '14 21:02
    Originally posted by wittywonka
    It didn't look at emotional outcomes--e.g., is a child happier in school if her parents are more involved--so its conclusions aren't quite as broad in scope as you make out to be. It's just claiming that parents aren't as effective at helping their kids do well in school as they might have thought, all things considered.
    How about comparing home schooled children to children in public school?

    If you want to see parents making a difference, that is the study you look at.
  11. 24 Mar '14 02:00
    Originally posted by wittywonka
    If you acknowledge this, then why would you disagree with an argument for centralizing education, at least to a degree (nobody's seriously talking about forcibly removing kids from their parents).
    Centralized education tends to be dictated by the party in power at the time, or in that location. Do you really believe that forcibly removing children from their parents is not being considered?
  12. Standard member finnegan
    GENS UNA SUMUS
    24 Mar '14 09:59
    Originally posted by normbenign
    This is a left wing opinion, denying the common wisdom that involved parents help children in school. The left wing would be happy to remove parents entirely, and take over custody and raising of children entirely, or transfer it to people they are appropriately satisfied with.

    The entire education system, K-12 thru college is almost entirely left win ...[text shortened]... ment, and they demonstrate far higher outcomes than either public or private school achievement.
    What a hilarious display of breathtaking stupidity.

    If it is intrinsically left wing to undertake properly conducted and accountable social research in order to inform policy debate with well grounded evidence, then I would imagine that more people would rush to be considered left wing in these terms.

    Instead we are to consider the argument that an opinion which relies on the scientific methods of social research (fully open to scrutiny, replication and falsification) is to be derided if it reaches a conclusion at odds with "common wisdom." Quite whose "common wisdom" is indicated here is not made clear but we can guess that certain types of common wisdom are better than other types of common wisdom.

    This would clarify why Normbenign is so obsessed with popular level economics. He thinks a system of tautologies based on "common sense" type observations can survive without being tested, supported or otherwise justified by empirical evidence.

    The idea that modern education aspires to separate children from their parents is so weird and absurd that it is almost disturbing. It suggests a fearful level of paranoia and a weak grip on social reality.
  13. Subscriber no1marauder
    It's Nice to Be Nice
    24 Mar '14 11:34 / 1 edit
    Originally posted by wittywonka
    Support?
    http://www.ericdigests.org/2000-3/home.htm

    Of course, the home schooled population is a skewed demographic as the article states. Nonetheless, there seem to have been many studies done which validate norm's statement.

    The wiki article on homeschooling also states:

    Numerous studies may suggest that homeschooled students on average outperform their peers on standardized tests.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homeschooling#Test_results

    and discusses the evidence and possible explanations.
  14. 24 Mar '14 15:15 / 1 edit
    Originally posted by wittywonka
    Please point out a specific, substantive concern you have with the methodology or the conclusion of the article, rather than making unsubstantiated value statements.
    You are really that stupid you can't see it for yourself? Wow!]

    What’s more, although conventional wisdom holds that poor children do badly in school because their parents don’t care about education, the opposite is true. Across race, class, and education level, the vast majority of American parents report that they speak with their kids about the importance of good grades and hope that they will attend college.
  15. Subscriber no1marauder
    It's Nice to Be Nice
    24 Mar '14 15:35
    Originally posted by Eladar
    You are really that stupid you can't see it for yourself? Wow!]

    [b]What’s more, although conventional wisdom holds that poor children do badly in school because their parents don’t care about education, the opposite is true. Across race, class, and education level, the vast majority of American parents report that they speak with their kids about the importance of good grades and hope that they will attend college.
    [/b]
    I guess your stereotypical beliefs should trump actual research.