Is it a force for good or a force for evil?
Obviously I come from this from the left-wing angle. And to me, that angle is personified by the likes of Stephen Fry, Rowan Atkinson, Bertrand Russel, etc.
And it is opposed to political correctness.
Not that I think hate speech should be tolerated. But it shouldn’t be banned either. Political correctness has never worked and it only changes words and not sentiments.
I also have real problems with terms like “the N word.” It’s banned on his forum.
But like everything, I feel like context and intent are very important. And how can you have a debate about Mark Twain’s use of the word, if you can’t write the FFing word...
And now there are subjects which are being banned. Concepts and ideas.
Safe spaces in universities, etc.
A millennial in the Netherlands has called for the holocaust not to be taught in college, because it upsets him.
What surprises me is the that a great many of these social justice warrior and PC types are described as left-wing.
But, the people who are doing the describing are often extremely right-wing and just want to be able to spew racist and conspiracy claptrap and feel victimized when people call them a racist.
In other words: they want the freedom to be racist, but call other’s calling them racist oppressive.
International victimhood on both sides of the coin.
And whether one is pro-PC or anti-PC doesn’t even bother me. But everyone has to be so careful about what they say and how they say it. It seems to me that political correctness has taken a very authoritarian turn.
Black or Coloured? A debate in the Netherlands (at my work).
With some people saying black (because of BLM and trying to be PC) and then getting nearly assaulted because the person in question wants to be referred to as coloured.
However, since they’re both English terms, WTF. It’s the Netherlands.
The list of examples is very long.
And I really worry when comedians are starting to get called out for not being PC
Where do you all stand on this issue?
@shavixmir
For example, people of markedly lower intelligence have been called many different things. In my school days, they were called mentally retarded. In my grandfather's day, they were called feeble minded. The PC crowd started changing the names, for example, to "developmentally delayed." I am not in favour of this. The feeble minded are not delayed; their train is not going to arrive at the station later. It is never going to arrive. They are always going to be feeble minded. "Intellectually challenged" is even more objectionable, because it does not distinguish people with Downs Syndrome from Stephen Hawking. Let us call things by their right names. Feeble minded is a perfectly accurate description. If, in addition to description, there is any pejorative sense to the term, this resides in the mind of the speaker. Changing the names doesn't change the underlying prejudice.
Do I think the feeble minded should be mocked and derided? No, of course not. They need extra care and attention. If some people think less of those of markedly lower intelligence, the blight on humanity rests there, not with the intellectually disadvantaged.
Apply the same logic to any other group which some members of some societies shun and despise. Faggots, queers, etc. While changing the name can sensitise a population to an issue, it doesn't change the underlying prejudice.
The N-word was originally "Niger," meaning a person from that part of the world, without derogatory connotation. The derogatory connotation rests in the minds of certain people, and changing the word to "people of color" or any other circumlocution, will not change the underlying prejudice.
In my experience, the only way a bigot can change his perspective is to come to love a member of the despised group (not necessarily in the carnal sense) and start looking at people as individuals instead of as placeholders for groups.
My two cents.
@moonbus saidNo, that's wrong.
The N-word was originally "Niger," meaning a person from that part of the world
First of all, Niger is not pronounced that way and is derived from a French word due to being a former French colony. The N-word comes from the Spanish for black.
@shavixmir saidPC culture goes too far but it's one of those cases where it's better to err on the side of caution until we arrive at more reasonable limits.
Is it a force for good or a force for evil?
Obviously I come from this from the left-wing angle. And to me, that angle is personified by the likes of Stephen Fry, Rowan Atkinson, Bertrand Russel, etc.
And it is opposed to political correctness.
Not that I think hate speech should be tolerated. But it shouldn’t be banned either. Political correctness has never worked ...[text shortened]... n comedians are starting to get called out for not being PC
Where do you all stand on this issue?
Describing something as "PC" is too often used a pejorative by people who want license express bigotry. Zwarte Piet, a racist character from the Netherlands that originated while slavery was still active (and was originally portrayed as a slave), is defended by invoking "PC culture" as a negative. Whites put on black face and parade around in the street celebrating celebrating slave culture dressed up as a "festive" event.
And then there are those such as yourself, who even in this day and age, honestly can't understand why black face or "Black Pete" is offensive. You've raised this issue before, and I don't group you with the conservatives on this site, I give you the benefit of the doubt that you truly just don't know why such portrayals should be banned. I'd like to have an honest discussion with you about such things.
If we have to choose between "PC" and "not PC", it's preferable to annoyed by whiney, sensitive liberal brats than to deal with bigots who want an excuse to spread racism, white supremacy, sexism, etc.
@vivify saidexactly.
No, that's wrong.
First of all, Niger is not pronounced that way and is derived from a French word due to being a former French colony. The N-word comes from the Spanish for black.
People in here are English-centric and think the English were selling all the slaves. Not so.
Spain was heavy in the slave markets and this is their term, Negro. Now they say Negro in English - Black.
@vivify saidI agree that the character is problematic in this day and age; but the Wikipedia entry on Zwarte Piet says that he has often been imagined as a former slave who was freed by St Nicholas and became his companion afterwards. So it's surely not self-evident that the character "celebrates slave culture". Mightn't he celebrate emancipation?
Zwarte Piet, a racist character from the Netherlands that originated while slavery was still active (and was originally portrayed as a slave), is defended by invoking "PC culture" as a negative. Whites put on black face and parade around in the street celebrating celebrating slave culture dressed up as a "festive" event.
@vivify saidThe Spanish word for black doesn't sound that way either.
No, that's wrong.
First of all, Niger is not pronounced that way and is derived from a French word due to being a former French colony. The N-word comes from the Spanish for black.
@shavixmir
I also have real problems with terms like “the N word.” It’s banned on his forum.
But like everything, I feel like context and intent are very important. And how can you have a debate about Mark Twain’s use of the word, if you can’t write the FFing word...
An edition of Huck Finn was recently published in which the N-word was expunged. Altering history to suit present sensibilities is Orwellian. In ten years, or maybe even only five, the currently acceptable euphemism will be changed again, and again, and then a society loses its grip on history -- history becomes ephemeral, the pawn of whatever the current politically accredited victim group wants. Truth wanders away and becomes . . . Trump.
@moonbus saidThe Spanish sounds much closer than Niger, which is pronounced neezh-air.
The Spanish word for black doesn't sound that way either.
While I was correct about Niger being a French colony, I was wrong about the name being derived from French:
https://www.britannica.com/place/Niger
"The name Niger derives in turn from the phrase gher n-gheren, meaning “river among rivers,” in the Tamashek language."
So it's not of European origin at all. Niger shouldn't be confused as an origin for the N-word, which was my original point.
@teinosuke saidThe character wears the attire of a minstrel show. He's not a symbol of liberation.
I agree that the character is problematic in this day and age; but the Wikipedia entry on Zwarte Piet says that he has often been imagined as a former slave who was freed by St Nicholas and became his companion afterwards. So it's surely not self-evident that the character "celebrates slave culture". Mightn't he celebrate emancipation?
@shavixmir said"What surprises me is the that a great many of these social justice warrior and PC types are described as left-wing."
Is it a force for good or a force for evil?
Obviously I come from this from the left-wing angle. And to me, that angle is personified by the likes of Stephen Fry, Rowan Atkinson, Bertrand Russel, etc.
And it is opposed to political correctness.
Not that I think hate speech should be tolerated. But it shouldn’t be banned either. Political correctness has never worked ...[text shortened]... n comedians are starting to get called out for not being PC
Where do you all stand on this issue?
it surprises you because you have been wrong all this time!
@moonbus saidIs the original Huckleberry Finn still available if you want it?
@shavixmir
I also have real problems with terms like “the N word.” It’s banned on his forum.
But like everything, I feel like context and intent are very important. And how can you have a debate about Mark Twain’s use of the word, if you can’t write the FFing word...
An edition of Huck Finn was recently published in which the N-word was expunged. Altering ...[text shortened]... r the current politically accredited victim group wants. Truth wanders away and becomes . . . Trump.
Since the answer is yes, maybe you might want to postpone the use of the word "orwellian".
Taking the Ns out of Huck Finn is no different than reading a 10 page summary of the book. Or adapting the book as a screenplay. Would you also call them "altering history" ?
" In ten years, or maybe even only five, the currently acceptable euphemism will be changed again, and again, and then a society loses its grip on history -- history becomes ephemeral, the pawn of whatever the current politically accredited victim group wants. Truth wanders away and becomes . . . Trump."
Me thinks thou art having too much fun down the slippery slope fallacy.
@vivify saidAs I said, I agree the character is highly problematic in this day and age. But I don't think it can actually be considered a celebration of slavery to depict someone who was freed from slavery by a saint.
The character wears the attire of a minstrel show. He's not a symbol of liberation.