Originally posted by JS357 I think you are right about the entropy comparison. I think nations have a life cycle and we can learn from history (not that the learning will include knowing what to do and getting the will to do it.)
Is there an example of a nation that became overgrown with corruption and repression, that reformed itself without violent internal revolution and/or international war?
Originally posted by normbenign I can't think of one.
Eighteenth-century England was corrupt and complacent. Victorian England was noted, despite its flaws, for probity and idealism. Unlike many European nations, England did not have a violent revolution.
Originally posted by Eladar I can see how you determine your point of view. You view believe that pushing certain social agendas as "protection from corruption". You are mixing up two different things. From your point of view you are not. Which means that anything other than a large government that pushes your personal beliefs is going to be corrupt.
I suppose this is a common po ...[text shortened]... rruption. Your comment was very enlightening. Thank you for letting me see how you see things.
Kazet is pointing out that "large governments" such as Sweden (government spending more than 50% of GDP) operate without violating the liberty of their citizens. Small governments like that of Russia (government spending less than 35% of GDP) nevertheless have a strong track record of oppression.
It's not clear what connection your response has to the point that Kazet posted.
Originally posted by KazetNagorra If you look at the Corruption Perceptions Index, the trend is the opposite - on average, a larger government is associated with less corruption. Now the CPI is not necessarily the best measure for corruption - what alternative measure do you suggest?
There is no measure. How can there be when a corrupt system does not police itself?
Originally posted by KazetNagorra What's a "corrupt system"? You think there is somehow a conspiracy to determine the outcome of the CPI?
There has to be arrests and litigation to mean much. Perception is based on what the news is telling folks. I don't know what you mean by a conspiracy on the CPI, but there definitely is little if no checks on government corruption.
Originally posted by Teinosuke Eighteenth-century England was corrupt and complacent. Victorian England was noted, despite its flaws, for probity and idealism. Unlike many European nations, England did not have a violent revolution.
Another example. The Netherlands, an economic and (to a lesser degree) military powerhouse in the mid- to late 17th Century, had become a complacent cesspool of corruption and incompetent rule by the late 18th Century. It was easily overrun by Napoleon, and when a supposedly strong united Kingdom was formed after Napoleon's defeat, the King meekly ceded to demands of Belgian independence in 1830, barely putting up a fight. Fearing a revolution, King William II acknowledged his weak position and allowed democratic reforms in 1848, giving up almost all of his power (although the same dynasty still sits on the throne today). No revolution was fought, and the Netherlands is now one of the wealthiest countries in the world.
Originally posted by KazetNagorra Another example. The Netherlands, an economic and (to a lesser degree) military powerhouse in the mid- to late 17th Century, had become a complacent cesspool of corruption and incompetent rule by the late 18th Century. It was easily overrun by Napoleon, and when a supposedly strong united Kingdom was formed after Napoleon's defeat, the King meekly ceded ...[text shortened]... revolution was fought, and the Netherlands is now one of the wealthiest countries in the world.
However, that did involve the painful disruption of the Napoleonic Wars...
Originally posted by Teinosuke However, that did involve the painful disruption of the Napoleonic Wars...
I'm not certain how big a role the Napoleonic wars had in the eventual adoption of the semi-democratic constitution of 1848, but the constitution itself came about without a fight.
Originally posted by joe beyser There has to be arrests and litigation to mean much. Perception is based on what the news is telling folks. I don't know what you mean by a conspiracy on the CPI, but there definitely is little if no checks on government corruption.
Undoubtably, perception and actual corruption do not have a simple one-to-one relation. But I highly doubt it is just based on "what the news is telling" - how about what people actually encounter?
Originally posted by Eladar If we assume this is true, and I think most of us do, then why would anyone want to increase the size and power of government? The more power you give it, the more corrupt it will naturally become.
This is one of the basic pillars of my belief of what a government should be. You should only give the government as little power as possible, so that you lim ...[text shortened]... is basic truth does not apply since you have such great ideals for what a big government can do?
I don't believe power corrupts, I do believe it will reveal corruption which
is different. If you have two different men find a wallet with money and
ID in it, a corrupt man will keep it, an honest man with the same power to
keep the wallet will return the wallet with the money intact.
Kelly
Originally posted by Teinosuke Eighteenth-century England was corrupt and complacent. Victorian England was noted, despite its flaws, for probity and idealism. Unlike many European nations, England did not have a violent revolution.
Reportedly the events in Berlin that led to the fall of the East German regime constitutes a peaceful revolution. I don't know how the East German regime would be scored on corruption. The entire concept of the state and its relation to the citizen was questionable.
Originally posted by KellyJay I don't believe power corrupts, I do believe it will reveal corruption which
is different. If you have two different men find a wallet with money and
ID in it, a corrupt man will keep it, an honest man with the same power to
keep the wallet will return the wallet with the money intact.
Kelly
One drop of rain will do nothing to a stone. Given enough time running water will have a great effect upon the stone. Senator do not get rich over night.
Originally posted by KazetNagorra Undoubtably, perception and actual corruption do not have a simple one-to-one relation. But I highly doubt it is just based on "what the news is telling" - how about what people actually encounter?
Few people may encounter governmental corruption. When there is a big scandal the news is certainly going to put a spin on it. When government gets big enough to control the media of course the perception of corruption will be effected.
Originally posted by Eladar One drop of rain will do nothing to a stone. Given enough time running water will have a great effect upon the stone. Senator do not get rich over night.
True a Senator may not get rich over night, but lepords don't change
their spots....we can go on like this forever...Honest people can be
tempted, but that does not mean they will act with evil intent to get
a head just because they can.
Kelly
25 Oct '13 02:11
Power Corrupts
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