Debates
27 Jul 04
27 Jul 04
3 edits
Originally posted by royalchickenIn my opinion, all people do, until they do something to lose it.
I was somewhat amused when I was told that someone had lost respect for me, as I had wondered why they would have had any in the first place. In your view, who deserves respect, under what circumstances, and for what reasons?
Innocent until proven guilty, if you will.
I'm not sure I could enumerate everything that would cause
me to lose respect for a person, but a couple major things that come
to mind are
Lack of integrity, which would include lying, dishonesty, deceit, and others.
Placing oneself above the rules, which encompasses a mindset that
one is not subject to the same responsibilities as others, or that one's
interests are more important than another's (in a way that violates
accepted rules), within some given social context.
I'm sure there are others. It is much easier to lose my respect
than to regain it once it is lost. It would be even harder for me
to describe how one could gain my lost respect. Admitting fault to
one of the above criteria would be the first step.
Dr. Cribs
P.S. I think respect is somewhat of an overloaded term, because
it can mean something completely different to respect a person's
achievements. I have a different variety of respect for a Beethoven
symphony than I have for my brothers. My post was addressing the personal
variety.
27 Jul 04
Originally posted by CribsI was also referring to the personal variety. I agree with the first, but I also have a somewhat funny interpretation of integrity.
In my opinion, all people do, until they do something to lose it.
Innocent until proven guilty, if you will.
I'm not sure I could enumerate everything that would cause
me to lose respect for a person, but a couple major things that come
to mind are
Lack of integrity, which would include lying, dishonesty, deceit, and others.
Placing oneself above ...[text shortened]... Beethoven
symphony than I have for my brothers. My post was addressing the personal
variety.
27 Jul 04
Originally posted by royalchickenYes. One can have philosophical integrity, moral integrity, etc.
I was also referring to the personal variety. I agree with the first, but I also have a somewhat funny interpretation of integrity.
Those would tend to lie more in my "achievements" category.
The personal integrity that is key to respect is the ability to
interact with real people in a consistent and reliable manner. If you plan
to meet someone at 7:00, do your best to keep that meeting.
You favorite TV show running late should not be an excuse.
If you stay to watch an extra 15 minutes, that is a lack of integrity.
Dr. Cribs
27 Jul 04
Originally posted by CribsI put that in a category below integrity; call it 'courtesy'. It's still terribly important, but I don't think worth losing respect over. Everybody lies, cheats, and steals as a result of their circumstances. Things happen to us, and the degree to which we can control them is not very large. Detach your (impersonal) mind and watch yourself--very few of your choices are conscious.
Yes. One can have philosophical integrity, moral integrity, etc.
Those would tend to lie more in my "achievements" category.
The personal integrity that is key to respect is the ability to
interact with real people in a consistent and reliable manner. If you plan
to meet someone at 7:00, do your best to keep that meeting.
You favorite TV show runnin ...[text shortened]... n excuse.
If you stay to watch an extra 15 minutes, that is a lack of integrity.
Dr. Cribs
I think the technologist's concept of 'structural integrity' is a good analogy to the reason I respect people. I respect people with the knowledge that fundamentally they have only themselves to rely on, and that therefore they should not compromise their humanity for the sake of a society. I only know a few people like this, and most of them would be seen as terribly arrogant, but I think that is an epithet applied by communities which are fearful of such people.
Oh dear, I got off topic in my own thread.
27 Jul 04
1 edit
Originally posted by royalchickenCan we agree that respect is something that everybody deserves
I think the technologist's concept of 'structural integrity' is a good analogy to the reason I respect people. I respect people with the knowledge that fundamentally they have only themselves to rely on, and that therefore they ...[text shortened]... rful of such people.
Oh dear, I got off topic in my own thread.
by default, until they do something to lose it?
Working under that assumption, I don't think it is fair to withhold
respect from people who have not yet solidified thier structural
integrity. That is not something that you are born with. It is
something one must continually work to achieve and maintain.
Some people may not ever be able to achieve it, in the same
way that some people will never be able to compose a symphony.
When it is achieved it is admirable, but I don't find it necessary
for personal respect, as it violates my basic assumption that everybody
deserves respect. Many people have the structural integrity of
a house of cards, but I wouldn't say I disrespect them for that
character flaw.
But such an accomplishment does deserve the highest form of
"achievement" respect.
Dr. Cribs
27 Jul 04
Originally posted by royalchickenCourtesy to me means to do something above and beyond
I put that in a category below integrity; call it 'courtesy'.
consistent and reliable interaction. Examples would include
taking your tray to the trashcan when you are done eating
at McDonald's, or holding an elevator door open for
somebody carrying luggage.
If we had a 7:00 meeting and you showed up on time,
I would not call that a courtesy. I would call that "doing
what you said you would do", or integrity between your
words and your actions in that social interaction.
Dr. Cribs
27 Jul 04
Originally posted by CribsI think this is just a difference in what we are calling respect. If everyone deserves respect by default, then it is a fundamental human right, and I agree that there are treatments that all people deserve as human beings.
Can we agree that respect is something that everybody deserves
by default, until they do something to lose it?
Working under that assumption, I don't think it is fair to withhold
respect from people who have not yet solidified thier structural
integrity. That is not something that you are born with. It is
something one must continually work to achi ...[text shortened]... h an accomplishment does deserve the highest form of
"achievement" respect.
Dr. Cribs
The common language use of 'respect' seems to hint at something else though, because otherwise there would be little point in saying 'I respect her/him'.
The integrity thing was an example of why I might give someone a 'rec' in my mind. (Specific achievements, to me, rarely earn respect for the achiever.)
I'd like to continue this discussion in either form though, and would be willing to use the word 'respect' to denote either of our concepts in this debate. Which would you like?
27 Jul 04
4 edits
Originally posted by royalchickenI'm going to sleep on this. There is something not quite right in
I think this is just a difference in what we are calling respect. If everyone deserves respect by default, then it is a fundamental human right, and I agree that there are treatments that all people deserve as human beings.
The c ...[text shortened]... note either of our concepts in this debate. Which would you like?
the implication you state in your first paragraph, but I am too
sleepy to put my finger on it.
It's something like this. Picture a POW camp. If I am a guard,
I don't necessarily have a personal respect for the prisoners, perhaps
because they were shooting at me before they were captured. But
I don't think that I am violating their fundamental human rights
if I do something disrepectful to them like lie about some state
of affairs in the war.
More to follow in the morning...
Dr. Cribs
P.S. Oh wait, I just realized what I don't like about the implication you state.
If respect is a human right, then I should never lose respect for anybody,
for if I did, I would be violating that human right. So I don't think this
is the definition of respect that we want to debate under.
P.P.S. Strike that last sentence. Replace it with "So I think your implication
is false."
27 Jul 04
OK, I had to get out of bed to post these thoughts before I forget them.
1. As we refine our definition, we should distinguish between
A. The act of mentally evaluating another person.
B. The manner in which we interact with another person.
As in A) I really respect him for being such an honest person, or
B) It would be disrepectful of me to lie to him.
There is a similar distinction one must make when defining love.
2. I think social interaction in an online discussion forum serves as
a good model.
For example, I think we can agree that it is essentially impossible
to violate another person's human rights via a discussion forum. I think
we can also agree that it is possible to respect or disrepect (in the sense
of either A or B above) another poster. So I think this shows that any
definition that links human rights and respect is not one that we want
to work with. (Although I think I still maintain that
[(Respect by default) IMPLIES (Respect is a human right)] is false, in case
we need to revisit that idea.)
Dr. Cribs
27 Jul 04
Originally posted by CribsIsn't this what the libel laws are for? Protecting one's 'human' rights to be as they wish to be. To be respected for that which they wish to be respected in?
For example, I think we can agree that it is essentially impossible
to violate another person's human rights via a discussion forum.
27 Jul 04
1 edit
Originally posted by shavixmirI don't think I see protection from libel as being a fundamental
Isn't this what the libel laws are for? Protecting one's 'human' rights to be as they wish to be. To be respected for that which they wish to be respected in?
human right, but I admit that that is more or less an arbitrary
opinion on my part. The only thing I would have to back it up
would be if the idea of libel were a very recent legal phenomenon
in mankind's history. I have no idea if that is true or not, but
I would guess it is. If it took us a while to come up with the idea,
then it is probably not as fundamental as protection from torture.
Dr. Cribs
28 Jul 04
I agree with Dr. (and soon to be president) Cribs. All people deserve respect, until they do something to warrant a lack of it.
I disagree with some of the things Cribs says, but I respect him for being an intelligent and well spoken man. And I love his use of olor in his avatar ensemble. 😀
30 Jul 04
1 edit
Originally posted by royalchickenRespect and authority mean exactly the same thing. Not in the dictionary, but in the tribe.
I was somewhat amused when I was told that someone had lost respect for me, as I had wondered why they would have had any in the first place. In your view, who deserves respect, under what circumstances, and for what reasons?
See my post on "Authority" by you.