III. THE FINAL PURIFICATION, OR PURGATORY
1030 All who die in God's grace and friendship, but still imperfectly purified, are indeed assured of their eternal salvation; but after death they undergo purification, so as to achieve the holiness necessary to enter the joy of heaven.
1031 The Church gives the name Purgatory to this final purification of the elect, which is entirely different from the punishment of the damned.606 The Church formulated her doctrine of faith on Purgatory especially at the Councils of Florence and Trent. The tradition of the Church, by reference to certain texts of Scripture, speaks of a cleansing fire:607
As for certain lesser faults, we must believe that, before the Final Judgment, there is a purifying fire. He who is truth says that whoever utters blasphemy against the Holy Spirit will be pardoned neither in this age nor in the age to come. From this sentence we understand that certain offenses can be forgiven in this age, but certain others in the age to come.608
1032 This teaching is also based on the practice of prayer for the dead, already mentioned in Sacred Scripture: Therefore [Judas Maccabeus] made atonement for the dead, that they might be delivered from their sin.609 From the beginning the Church has honored the memory of the dead and offered prayers in suffrage for them, above all the Eucharistic sacrifice, so that, thus purified, they may attain the beatific vision of God.610 The Church also commends almsgiving, indulgences, and works of penance undertaken on behalf of the dead:
Let us help and commemorate them. If Job's sons were purified by their father's sacrifice, why would we doubt that our offerings for the dead bring them some consolation? Let us not hesitate to help those who have died and to offer our prayers for them.611
http://www.vatican.va/archive/ccc_css/archive/catechism/p123a12.htm#III
I am not a believer in the Bible, so feel free to tell me to butt out.
That said, I am pretty sure that some of the ammunition Protestants bring to bear on the idea that there is a Purgatory comes from Jesus saying to the thief hanging on a cross: "This day you will be with me in paradise." So it would seem Jesus either thought there was no Purgatory, or else he thought people spent less than a day there. Right?
Originally posted by Paul DiracIf I understand it well the explanation is, that the good murderer could go straight to heaven because he had a complete remorse. Purgatory would have been an option if his remorse had been caused by fear to go to hell (imperfect remorse).
I am not a believer in the Bible, so feel free to tell me to butt out.
That said, I am pretty sure that some of the ammunition Protestants bring to bear on the idea that there is a Purgatory comes from Jesus saying to the thief hangin ...[text shortened]... ory, or else he thought people spent less than a day there. Right?
Actually, I think this is rather beautiful concept within the Christian Church. Is our drive for correct action fueled by fear for punishment or by an internal longing to do right?
I sidenote. In some segments of Buddhism we see also a variation of this phenomena. When a person dies in Tibet the mind lingers on for a while in a Bardo-realm in which he is confronted with his deeds on earth. After this confrontation he can reincarnate. Depending on the heap of karma the poor soul has to work out he has to stay shorter or longer in the Bardo. An interesting but difficult book about this theme is "The Tibetan book of the death" A version more adjusted to the western mind is called "The Tibetan book of living and dying" by Sogyal Rinpoche.
fjord
Originally posted by Paul DiracPaul Dirac: "I am not a believer in the Bible, so feel free to tell me to butt out."
I am not a believer in the Bible, so feel free to tell me to butt out.
That said, I am pretty sure that some of the ammunition Protestants bring to bear on the idea that there is a Purgatory comes from Jesus saying to the thief hanging on a cross: "This day you will be with me in paradise." So it would seem Jesus either thought there was no Purgatory, or else he thought people spent less than a day there. Right?
Everybody who wants to react in a truthful and serious way is welcome to post in this thread.
Paul Dirac: " .... comes from Jesus saying to the thief hanging on a cross: " .......... "
In my view this doesn't prove anything about there being a purgatory or not. Jesus Christ is the autonomous Judge, he has the authority to judge and we have no authority nor the capacities to doubt or judge his decisions. We are allowed however to investigate his decisions. A conclusion we can draw from this in my view is: It is possible for a murderer to go to heaven, without going to purgatory, if Jesus Christ as his just, omniscient, omnibenevolent Judge has made such a decision.
as an anglican the theif on the cross if true is forgiveness even at the end, but it was not the end of the theifs life, as custom dictated they were taken down and had there legs broken jesus who had died did not have this as scripture says. Purgatry to my knowledge is only mentioned by a latter pope who by catholic belief is never wrong, and by mary who visited fatima children, saying many go there as they have no one to pray for them, as in the novenna 9 day pray,