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Debates Forum

  1. 30 Nov '09 07:55
    http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/8384897.stm

    Is this just the Obama administration using Rummy as a scapegoat to justify a further troop surge in Afghanistan?

    Or is there merit in the argument that more troops should have been sent after OBL at the time when his location was known?
  2. Subscriber FMF
    a.k.a. John W Booth
    30 Nov '09 08:08
    Originally posted by The Snapper
    http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/8384897.stm

    Is this just the Obama administration using Rummy as a scapegoat to justify a further troop surge in Afghanistan?

    Or is there merit in the argument that more troops should have been sent after OBL at the time when his location was known?
    I think "not catching OBL" may have been a deliberate strategy in 2003. If I recall correctly, Oceania never captured Emmanuel Goldstein: why would they??
  3. Standard member sh76
    Civis Americanus Sum
    30 Nov '09 15:07
    Originally posted by FMF
    I think "not catching OBL" may have been a deliberate strategy in 2003.
    It's possible; but I don't buy it.

    Capturing OBL would not have decreased American public support for the actions in Afghanistan and/or Iraq (just as the capture of Hussein temporarily took the people's minds off the search for the WMDs and greatly increases- temporarily- for operations in Iraq).

    On the contrary, it would have been a great victory for the administration's GWOT and would probably have increased popular support for other anti-terror operations.

    As for whether this would have decreased international support for the morality or justification for further operations against terror, I think it's pretty clear that Bush didn't give a hoot about that sort of thing.
  4. Subscriber FMF
    a.k.a. John W Booth
    30 Nov '09 15:17
    Originally posted by sh76
    Capturing OBL would not have decreased American public support for the actions in Afghanistan and/or Iraq
    I wasn't thinking in those terms. I was thinking more along the lines of the "we have nothing to fear but fear itself" thing you have going on there in the U.S. Engendering support and keeping a population cowered and pliant are different kinds of manipulation and there's no reason to think there's only one of them going on at any given time in the domestic mindgames department of your GWOT.
  5. 30 Nov '09 15:18
    Originally posted by sh76
    It's possible; but I don't buy it.

    Capturing OBL would not have decreased American public support for the actions in Afghanistan and/or Iraq (just as the capture of Hussein temporarily took the people's minds off the search for the WMDs and greatly increases- temporarily- for operations in Iraq).

    On the contrary, it would have been a great victory for th ...[text shortened]... t terror, I think it's pretty clear that Bush didn't give a hoot about that sort of thing.
    Leaving the only conclusion that stands the test of reasonableness: they were massively incompetent. (No surprise there.)
  6. Standard member sh76
    Civis Americanus Sum
    30 Nov '09 15:42
    Originally posted by FMF
    I wasn't thinking in those terms. I was thinking more along the lines of the "we have nothing to fear but fear itself" thing you have going on there in the U.S. Engendering support and keeping a population cowered and pliant are different kinds of manipulation and there's no reason to think there's only one of them going on at any given time in the domestic mindgames department of your GWOT.
    Ah, yes, hence the Emmanuel Goldstein reference.

    The only difference being that OBL and AQ are real. And, if you don't believe that, just ask our department of Truth... I mean our Department of Homeland Security.
  7. Subscriber FMF
    a.k.a. John W Booth
    30 Nov '09 16:01
    Originally posted by sh76
    The only difference being that OBL and AQ are real.
    OBL wouldn't have been "real" anymore, in the sense I've been talking about, if the U.S. had captured him.

    And it seems likely that AQ is not "real" either - at least not in the Man From U.N.C.L.E. kind of way that much of the mainstream media has obediently depicted it because people can get their heads round Man From U.N.C.L.E. - while channel hopping and scoffing potato chips - and if it's depicted as hardly even a loose consortium of groups and cells that do their own things, then people might say... How can we have a "War" against these groups? That's daft. Shouldn't it be an international criminal investigation with lethal force supplied by the military when necessary, with legitimate trials (for the survivors of the lethal force)?
  8. 30 Nov '09 16:46
    Originally posted by FMF
    OBL wouldn't have been "real" anymore, in the sense I've been talking about, if the U.S. had captured him.

    And it seems likely that AQ is not "real" either - at least not in the Man From U.N.C.L.E. kind of way that much of the mainstream media has obediently depicted it because people can get their heads round Man From U.N.C.L.E. - while channel hoppin ...[text shortened]... itary when necessary, with legitimate trials (for the survivors of the lethal force)?
    Spot on.
  9. 30 Nov '09 21:36
    Originally posted by The Snapper
    http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/8384897.stm

    Is this just the Obama administration using Rummy as a scapegoat to justify a further troop surge in Afghanistan?

    Or is there merit in the argument that more troops should have been sent after OBL at the time when his location was known?
    Hey ... you conservative ... OBL's dead.
  10. 02 Dec '09 18:33
    Originally posted by scherzo
    Hey ... you conservative ... OBL's dead.
    what?!?
  11. 02 Dec '09 18:57
    Originally posted by zeeblebot
    what?!?
    scherzo is a compulsive liar, you don't have to take everything he says seriously.
  12. 03 Dec '09 02:13 / 1 edit
    Originally posted by zeeblebot
    what?!?
    Come now ... why would the most powerful army in the world completely obliterate the country that was sheltering him and not find him anywhere for eight years and still think he's alive?? It's not as big a world now as it was a few years ago.

    EDIT: "a few" meaning 50.
  13. 03 Dec '09 11:02
    Originally posted by generalissimo
    scherzo is a compulsive liar, you don't have to take everything he says seriously.
    He may also be a 'fellow traveller'.
  14. Subscriber kmax87
    You've got Kevin
    03 Dec '09 15:43
    Originally posted by The Snapper
    Or is there merit in the argument that more troops should have been sent after OBL at the time when his location was known?
    Why are we still lingering with the fantasy that OBL was ever alive? Surely an invisible terror is best that?
  15. 03 Dec '09 17:24
    Doesn't matter. If a Navy SEAL would have punched OBL and given him a fat lip, OBL would have been released by B-HO and the SEAL would now be on trial for being mean to a terrorist.