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  1. Subscriber no1marauder
    It's Nice to Be Nice
    14 Jan '11 02:20
    Jared Loughner had a 30 shot magazine on his Glock which enabled him to keep shooting long after a typical hand gun would have needed to be reloaded (a revolver has 6 shots and semi-automatics used by the US military have a 15 round mag). Even some gun rights advocates (like me) have come out in support of restrictions on the number of rounds a mag can hold in the wake of the massacre in Arizona:

    A leading gun-rights advocate says there is no constitutional barrier to restricting the sale of high capacity gun magazines such as the one used by accused Tucson shooter Jared Loughner and that such proposals are justified to prevent "looney tunes" from committing more gun massacres.

    Robert A. Levy, who served as co-counsel in the landmark Supreme Court case that established a Second Amendment right to bear arms, said there was no reason the court's decision in that case should apply to the purchase of high-capacity gun magazines.

    "I don't see any constitutional bar to regulating high-capacity magazines," Levy said in an interview with NBC. "Justice [Antonin] Scalia made it quite clear some regulations are permitted. The Second Amendment is not absolute."

    The comments by Levy, chairman of the board of the libertarian Cato Institute, come as Democratic Rep. Carolyn McCarthy of New York is preparing to circulate a bill tomorrow that would ban the sale or transfer of high-capacity magazines. Supporters took Levy's comments as a sign that at least some gun-rights advocates might be open to the idea.

    "For somebody like him to say this is significant," said Kristen Rand, legislative director of the Violence Policy Project, a leading gun control group. (Levy was one of the lead lawyers for gun rights in D.C. v. Heller, the 2008 Supreme Court case that overturned Washington D.C.'s ban on handgun ownership and affirmed that the Second Amendment encompassed an individual right to own firearms.)

    There is little doubt that any gun-control proposal will face tough sledding in the Congress. A spokesman said today House Majority Leader Eric Cantor is against the idea. One leading gun-rights group, Gun Owners of America, posted a statement on its Web site this week denouncing "liberal politicians flocking like vultures" to gain political advantage from the Tucson tragedy by proposing new gun control measures.

    But gun-control groups argue that measures like the one being proposed by McCarthy in the House (and Sen. Frank Lautenberg (D-NJ), who is sponsoring a similar bill in the Senate) are so modest and reasonable that they could gain traction. Law-enforcement officials have noted that Loughner's high-capacity round magazine substantially increased the lethality of his rampage; he was able to get off at least 31 shots without reloading and was only wrestled to the ground when he tried to reload with another high-capacity magazine.

    The manufacture of such magazines were prohibited under the 1994 federal assault weapons ban, but that law lapsed in 2004 and gun experts say the sale of such magazines have since proliferated.

    President Obama, during his 2008 campaign, had supported reinstating the assault weapons ban, but soon abandoned the idea as politically impractical after taking office. This week, the White House has declined to respond to requests for comment on whether the president would support a restriction on high-capacity magazines.

    Although he is strongly opposed to most gun-control measures, Levy said in this case, "as a policy matter," restricting access to high-capacity magazines such as the 33-round ones used by Loughner makes sense.

    "It may stop a few of these looney tunes," Levy said. While saying that he saw it as a "close call, he said that that a restriction of "10 to 15 rounds makes sense."

    http://firstread.msnbc.msn.com/_news/2011/01/12/5825033-gun-rights-advocate-high-capacity-magazine-restrictions-makes-sense


    Is McCarthy's bill really a long shot in the House? Is there any good reason to oppose it?
  2. Standard member Soothfast
    0,1,1,2,3,5,8,13,21,
    14 Jan '11 05:00 / 1 edit
    That's easy: yes (in answer to the title question).

    There's no valid reason I can think of for a private citizen to own them.
  3. Standard member bill718
    Enigma
    14 Jan '11 05:50 / 1 edit
    Originally posted by Soothfast
    That's easy: yes (in answer to the title question).

    There's no valid reason I can think of for a private citizen to own them.
    You will NEVER be able to place any meaningful restraints on gun ownership in America.

    * No matter how overwelming the evidence is to suggest guns are too easy to obtain by crimminals.

    *No matter how overwelming the evidence is to suggest guns are too easy to obtain by minors.

    * No matter how many needless deaths happen each year.

    Too many Americans are in love with there "right" to own a gun. Regarding the needless slaughter of innocent people...Americans just don't give a damn!
  4. Standard member Soothfast
    0,1,1,2,3,5,8,13,21,
    14 Jan '11 06:09
    Originally posted by bill718
    You will NEVER be able to place any meaningful restraints on gun ownership in America.

    * No matter how overwelming the evidence is to suggest guns are too easy to obtain by crimminals.

    *No matter how overwelming the evidence is to suggest guns are too easy to obtain by minors.

    * No matter how many needless deaths happen each year.

    Too many Americ ...[text shortened]... n. Regarding the needless slaughter of innocent people...Americans just don't give a damn!
    Well, color me an optimist then. Just this once. The narrative has been monopolized by the gun nuts for over a decade, but the tide can be turned.
  5. Standard member bill718
    Enigma
    14 Jan '11 06:14
    Originally posted by Soothfast
    Well, color me an optimist then. Just this once. The narrative has been monopolized by the gun nuts for over a decade, but the tide can be turned.
    I hope you are correct, but I'll believe it when I see it.
  6. Standard member sh76
    Civis Americanus Sum
    14 Jan '11 14:43
    Originally posted by bill718
    You will NEVER be able to place any meaningful restraints on gun ownership in America.

    * No matter how overwelming the evidence is to suggest guns are too easy to obtain by crimminals.

    *No matter how overwelming the evidence is to suggest guns are too easy to obtain by minors.

    * No matter how many needless deaths happen each year.

    Too many Americ ...[text shortened]... n. Regarding the needless slaughter of innocent people...Americans just don't give a damn!
    What are you talking about? For 10 years, there was a Federal Assault Weapons Ban in place

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Federal_Assault_Weapons_Ban

    Now, it's unfortunate that it's expired and perhaps it didn't go far enough, but to say that "You will NEVER be able to place any meaningful restraints on gun ownership in America" is ignoring history. The Brady Bill is another "meaningful restraint on gun ownership in America."

    As for the OP, yes, I'm in favor of banning most types of automatic weapons.
  7. Subscriber Sleepyguy
    Reepy Rastardly Guy
    14 Jan '11 15:04
    Originally posted by sh76
    As for the OP, yes, I'm in favor of banning most types of automatic weapons.
    Automatic weapons are already restricted. The OP is about the capacity for magazines for semi-automatics.
  8. Standard member MacSwain
    Who is John Galt?
    14 Jan '11 15:43
    Originally posted by no1marauder
    “Jared Loughner had a 30 shot magazine on his Glock which enabled him to keep shooting long after a typical hand gun would have needed to be reloaded (a revolver has 6 shots and semi-automatics used by the US military have a 15 round mag). Even some gun rights advocates (like me) have come out in support of restrictions on the number of rounds a mag can hold in the wake of the massacre in Arizona:”

    Not logical at all. If someone wants 30 shots all that’s needed is to have two Glocks (or insert any other brand.)

    Originally posted by no1marauder
    “such proposals are justified to prevent "looney tunes" from committing more gun massacres.”

    There has never been nor will there ever be ANY law that has EVER prevented criminals or “looney tunes” from having as many guns of any type they want. It is an unarguable fact: Gun laws are only obeyed by individuals who are LAWFUL and SANE.
  9. Standard member MacSwain
    Who is John Galt?
    14 Jan '11 15:47
    Here are samples of gun use in the U.S.. National news outlets never reported these news stories. Only those local papers reported these stories. What is sad to think about is the number of people murdered each year who were made afraid to arm themselves because their government pressures not to protect him or herself.
    _________________________________________________________________

    “Two female joggers were enjoying a morning run when three dogs viciously attacked them. Blood-curdling screams rang out. Onlookers dialled 9-1-1, but Gary Paque knew there was not time. He grabbed his 9 mm handgun and ran to the scene. “One of the women was on the ground and there were three dogs trying to pull her apart,” he said. “I shot the one dog, and he just dropped … the other dogs stopped, then continued to attack her.” Paque’s gun malfunctioned, but neighbour John Bettencourt arrived with a .45 cal. pistol and shot the two remaining dogs. The most badly injured jogger was taken to the hospital with serious but not life-threatening injuries. “The armed citizens probably saved her life,” said Police Officer Joseph Holecek.”
    (Daily Republic, Fairfield, Calif., 09/11/10)

    “His delivery completed, a pizza driver began to drive away when a masked man accosted him with a shotgun and announced a robbery. The driver drew a handgun that he was licensed to carry and shot the suspect. After asking a passer-by to call 9-1-1, the compassionate driver reassured the wounded suspect that help was on the way. "He kept saying, “They’re coming!” like he was encouraging him to be okay,” said witness Dana Trader. The suspect will be arrested after his release from the hospital.”
    (WTVR-TV, Richmond, Va., 09/20/10)

    “Retired schoolteacher Larry Goldstein was awakened by a loud noise and quickly obtained his .38 cal. Smith & Wesson revolver. As he reached the first floor of his Brooklyn, N.Y. home, two men confronted him carrying what appeared to be a pistol and a M-16 rifle. Fearing for his life, Goldstein shot one of the intruders three times. The wounded intruder was arrested however his accomplice had fled the scene. Both guns carried by the men proved to be toys, but according to a police spokesman, they “were very realistic looking, if someone pointed them at you, you would light them up, too,” he said.”
    (The Wall Street Journal, New York, N.Y., 09/16/10)

    “A woman was attending a convenience store register when a convicted felon burst through the door and put a gun in her face. The woman’s husband, who’d been sitting on a stool at the end of the counter, drew his handgun and shot the suspect three times. The suspect will be arrested upon his release from the hospital. “I hope that this sends a really strong message to anyone that’s thinking about going out and doing something stupid that there are people out there who are legally carrying firearms and they have the right to protect themselves or another person,” said Surry County Sheriff Graham Atkinson.”
    (The Mount Airy News, Mount Airy, N.C., 09/23/10)

    “Ethel Jones, a 69-year-old grandmother, heard a ruckus at her front door one evening while she was home alone. “He started shaking the door,” she recalled, “and I said to myself, “somebody is fixin’ to break in!” The burglar removed an air conditioner from a window and crawled inside. Jones quickly obtained her revolver, walked out of her bedroom and came face-to-face with the intruder. “I shot three times,” she explained, “and he ran away hollering.” The wounded suspect was arrested at the hospital. “I hope this will make people have second thoughts before they break into a home in our neighbourhood and stop some of the crime we’ve had around here,” Jones said.”
    (The Decatur Daily, Decatur, Ala., 08/31/10)

    “Casey Bartram returned home with his girlfriend and 2-year-old son after an evening of bowling, but grew suspicious when he noticed the house was darker than normal and the door wasn’t locked properly. Unbeknownst to Bartram, two intruders wearing ski masks lurked inside. One of them, who had a gun, sprang upon Bartram who also had a gun (carried legally). In the ensuing struggle, Bartram fired a shot, killing the assailant. The second suspect fled and was arrested. “It’s a good Second Amendment case,” said Wayne County Sheriff Greg Farley. “A man was able to defend his girlfriend, child and home.””
    (The Herald-Dispatch, Huntington, W.Va., 09/21/10)

    “When an unexpected knock at the door roused a homeowner from, he holstered his handgun. Two men at the door told the homeowner they had caught someone tampering with his vehicle. After a brief chat he began to close the door, but the men quickly asked for the homeowner’s hep jumpstarting their vehicle. He said he could not help. Then the men asked for a drink of water and homeowner grew very suspicious. He tried to close the door, but before he could do so, one of the men suck his arm through the door and fired a gun. The homeowner shot one of the suspects, who was arrested when police arrived. The suspect’s accomplice was still being sought.”
    (KMOV-TV, St. Louis, Mo., 09/23/10)
  10. 14 Jan '11 15:59
    the second amendment means that citizens MUST be equipped with enough firepower to overthrow the government if any of them feel that it has become too "tyrannical".

    so clearly, the citizens' right to own and operate nuclear bombs cannot be infringed upon.
  11. 14 Jan '11 16:04 / 2 edits
    Originally posted by MacSwain
    Here are samples of gun use in the U.S.. National news outlets never reported these news stories. Only those local papers reported these stories. What is sad to think about is the number of people murdered each year who were made afraid to arm themselves because their government pressures not to protect him or herself.
    __________________________________ rrived. The suspect’s accomplice was still being sought.”
    (KMOV-TV, St. Louis, Mo., 09/23/10)
    This is the anecdotal argument approach you hear on informercials declaring that powder from the guaguamana plant in the mountains of Mongolia will make you feel 30 years younger.

    Each side of the issue can amass a large number of stories to "prove" their point. But in a nation of 300mill+ people, you can use this method to "prove" pretty much ANY point.
  12. Standard member MacSwain
    Who is John Galt?
    14 Jan '11 16:09
    Originally posted by Melanerpes
    This is the anecdotal argument approach you hear on informercials declaring that powder from the guaguamana plant in the mountains of Mongolia will make you feel 30 years younger.

    Each side of the issue can amass a large number of stories to "prove" their point. But in a nation of 300mill+ people, you can use this method to "prove" pretty much ANY point.
    Is what you're injecting available at the drugist or can it only be obtained from individuals on the corner wearing 'hoodies'?
  13. 14 Jan '11 16:28
    Originally posted by MacSwain
    Here are samples of gun use in the U.S.. National news outlets never reported these news stories. Only those local papers reported these stories. What is sad to think about is the number of people murdered each year who were made afraid to arm themselves because their government pressures not to protect him or herself.
    __________________________________ ...[text shortened]... rrived. The suspect’s accomplice was still being sought.”
    (KMOV-TV, St. Louis, Mo., 09/23/10)
    You seem to be arguing besides the issue, the question is whether there should be any restrictions on high-capacity mags. In all the anecdotes you post there is no mention of anyone needing more than 3 shots to defend themselves.
  14. Subscriber no1marauder
    It's Nice to Be Nice
    14 Jan '11 16:28
    Originally posted by MacSwain
    Here are samples of gun use in the U.S.. National news outlets never reported these news stories. Only those local papers reported these stories. What is sad to think about is the number of people murdered each year who were made afraid to arm themselves because their government pressures not to protect him or herself.
    __________________________________ ...[text shortened]... rrived. The suspect’s accomplice was still being sought.”
    (KMOV-TV, St. Louis, Mo., 09/23/10)
    Red herring; in not a single one of those cases was a 30 round magazine necessary.
  15. Subscriber no1marauder
    It's Nice to Be Nice
    14 Jan '11 16:30 / 2 edits
    Originally posted by MacSwain
    Originally posted by no1marauder
    “Jared Loughner had a 30 shot magazine on his Glock which enabled him to keep shooting long after a typical hand gun would have needed to be reloaded (a revolver has 6 shots and semi-automatics used by the US military have a 15 round mag). Even some gun rights advocates (like me) have come out in support of restri nt. It is an unarguable fact: Gun laws are only obeyed by individuals who are LAWFUL and SANE.[/b]
    BS. How is any criminal going to get a 30 shot mag if their manufacture or import into the US is banned?

    Is there ANY weapon that private ownership could be banned of under your argument? Would it be useless to ban people owning maching guns because "criminals and the insane won't obey the law"? How about flamethrowers? Or tanks? Tactical nuclear weapons?