07 Nov 07
The London Assembly, a political forum only loosely affiliated with Government, has issued a Vote Of No Confidence in Metropolitan Police Commissioner Ian Blair, following the Stockwell Tube shooting of Jean Charles de Menezes, and has aggressively suggested he resign instead of undergo (their) threat of his being pushed.
Mistakes were made that lead to this man's death, there is no doubt or argument offered...but should it end the career of a man that has been with the force all his life, and as its "CEO", lead the Force to reduced crime rates for four straight years?
07 Nov 07
Originally posted by ZadadkaThe officer who pulled the trigger several times should be charged and tried for murder. Instead, he is back on duty carrying a firearm. Bad taste, or what?
The London Assembly, a political forum only loosely affiliated with Government, has issued a Vote Of No Confidence in Metropolitan Police Commissioner Ian Blair, following the Stockwell Tube shooting of Jean Charles de Menezes, and has aggressively suggested he resign instead of undergo (their) threat of his being pushed.
Mistakes were made that lead to t ...[text shortened]... ll his life, and as its "CEO", lead the Force to reduced crime rates for four straight years?
07 Nov 07
Originally posted by znshoI thought the report showed that errors in the surveillance leading up to de Menezes entering the underground station were primarily responsible for the tragic actions that followed. The 2 police men who shot him performed their role exactly as trained - they were just doing their job and would be national heroes had de Menezes been a suicide bomber.
The officer who pulled the trigger several times should be charged and tried for murder.
07 Nov 07
Originally posted by znsho...and if Mr Menezes had been a bomber, you'd be asking why the trigger wasn't pulled sooner instead of reading of another umpteen ruined bodies in a tube bombing.
The officer who pulled the trigger several times should be charged and tried for murder. Instead, he is back on duty carrying a firearm. Bad taste, or what?
These forums have several remarks concerning detaining/terminating terrorists before they have the chance to act etc.
This is a basic example of why that dog won't hunt ...
"Intelligence" gets it wrong ... it happens all the time... through one wrong word at the wrong time, people die as a direct result when they shouldn't have.
In war, the first casualty is innocence.
If you don't think the fight againt terrorism is war, that's up to you, but there is a front line, and the people that stand on it in our defence are not politically motivated fools in posession of some degree of hindsight...it is men and women who have to make life and death decisions in a split second, without referral to any committee, and so when mistakes are made, the outcome is often tragic.
Friendly fire incidents in "conventional theatre"are not fully prosecuted for the same reasons.
Or do you think conversely that we should also try Bush for the deaths of every US soldier who has given his life as a result of bad intelligence perpetuated by his Office?
07 Nov 07
Originally posted by ZadadkaActually, yes.
Or do you think conversely that we should also try Bush for the deaths of every US soldier who has given his life as a result of bad intelligence perpetuated by his Office?
The point about Blair (Tony and Ian) is that the buck stops with them.
That's what accountability is about. If we can't bring these people to account, there's little point in even pretending we're a democracy.
07 Nov 07
Originally posted by ZadadkaYes. He's the big Kahuna. He should resign. That's what his job entails.
The London Assembly, a political forum only loosely affiliated with Government, has issued a Vote Of No Confidence in Metropolitan Police Commissioner Ian Blair, following the Stockwell Tube shooting of Jean Charles de Menezes, and has aggressively suggested he resign instead of undergo (their) threat of his being pushed.
Mistakes were made that lead to t ...[text shortened]... ll his life, and as its "CEO", lead the Force to reduced crime rates for four straight years?
It wasn't like they fined someone for a traffic offense they didn't commit. They shot someone in the face. 7 times from close by.
They pointed guns at the man and he raised his arms. So they killed him.
Okay. The police were all hyped up. Okay, there had just been a bombing. Okay the police are human (sort of).
And maybe this was bound to happen.
Ian Blair shouldn't be forced to resign. I agree with that.
But for all involved, the man should resign of his own free will. That's his job. That's what he's paid for.
07 Nov 07
1 edit
Originally posted by RedmikeOh come on....that's just being naive.
Actually, yes.
The point about Blair (Tony and Ian) is that the buck stops with them.
That's what accountability is about. If we can't bring these people to account, there's little point in even pretending we're a democracy.
The odds are hugely against it, of course, but that war could come to your door...you never know....
In such event, if you think, if you have no reason to doubt, that this person may be about to blow you to kingdom-come, you'll be there on your knees screaming for the trigger to be pulled.
Will you also be baying for Blair(s) blood because the buck stops with him/them when they failed to protect you if the trigger wasn't pulled?
Be realistic...if things continue in the manner you prescribe, with blame apportioned top-down, we will change Governments faster than some sports teams change their coach.
EDIT : Same for you Shav...we have to trust and acept mistakes are made in uncharted waters.
08 Nov 07
Originally posted by ZadadkaHow far do you think your reasoning goes? We already have a death of an innocent at the hands of the police force. What else is justifiable then?
Oh come on....that's just being naive.
The odds are hugely against it, of course, but that war could come to your door...you never know....
In such event, if you think, if you have no reason to doubt, that this person may be about to blow you to kingdom-come, you'll be there on your knees screaming for the trigger to be pulled.
Will you also be baying ...[text shortened]...
EDIT : Same for you Shav...we have to trust and acept mistakes are made in uncharted waters.
08 Nov 07
Originally posted by shavixmirIf every good leader,Ceo,commander et al were to resign for every stuff up occasioning unjust death on their watch, you would very soon have a system where every potentially good leader would simply not bother to put their hat in the ring for promotion and you would soon have every major branch being staffed by a cadre of incompetents whose only skill would lie in blame shifting.
Ian Blair shouldn't be forced to resign. I agree with that.
But for all involved, the man should resign of his own free will. That's his job. That's what he's paid for.
08 Nov 07
Originally posted by ZadadkaHow about we start shooting every Chinese we see - there's a chance we might nail the guilty sods who are flooding the markets with clothing, toys and foods which are proving dangerous to our kids and pets. The fact that the recalls are very publicly announced, leading to a feeling of fear and unease, are copybook terrorism tactics.
...and if Mr Menezes [b]had been a bomber, you'd be asking why the trigger wasn't pulled sooner instead of reading of another umpteen ruined bodies in a tube bombing.
These forums have several remarks concerning detaining/terminating terrorists before they have the chance to act etc.
This is a basic example of why that dog won't hunt ...
"Intellig ...[text shortened]... dier who has given his life as a result of bad intelligence perpetuated by his Office?[/b]
Likewise, we should start shooting all the sad, lonely emos at our high schools and universities - we may be preventing acts of domestic terrorism ... or, if not terrorism, at least we might prevent another campus massacre.
And, incidently, the people who do think the fight against terrorism is a war - and who are ordering other people to stand on the front line - are politically motivated. The fools are those who think otherwise.
08 Nov 07
Originally posted by treetalkPay more attention in class.
How about we start shooting every Chinese we see - there's a chance we [b]might nail the guilty sods who are flooding the markets with clothing, toys and foods which are proving dangerous to our kids and pets. The fact that the recalls are very publicly announced, leading to a feeling of fear and unease, are copybook terrorism tactics.
Likewise, we s ...[text shortened]... on the front line - are politically motivated. The fools are those who think otherwise.[/b]
08 Nov 07
The officers involved in this case were not in uniform. It is not surprising that the victim ran away from them. He thought he was about to be mugged. What would you do if chased by apparently large thugs in ordinary clothes? Run away.
All officers involved in this case were grossly and, in my mind, ciminally, negligent. Until those guilty are properly dealt with by the CRIMINAL law, police officers will continue to behave in an arrogant, 'above-the-law' manner for the simple reason that they know they can get away with it.
In addition, it smacks of unbeliveable bad taste that the guilty officer is back on armed duty. One would think that any decent person, with any feeling at all and any thought for the consequences of their actions would be so guilt ridden or shocked that they would never want to handle a gun again. It appears that this person is immune to these humane feelings - that is, an arrogant, ruthless, 'holier- than-thou' attitude. 'I am a police officer. I can NEVER be guilty'. Utter tosh.
And, to the person who said 'what if he had been a terrosist? You would be asking why the officer did not shoot'. No I would not. Too many innocents have been killed by the police in the past. You can even be killed for carrying a table-leg and on the whims of an anonymous 'phone-call from a member of the public.
08 Nov 07
Originally posted by znshoToo many innocents have been killed?
The officers involved in this case were not in uniform. It is not surprising that the victim ran away from them. He thought he was about to be mugged. What would you do if chased by apparently large thugs in ordinary clothes? Run away.
All officers involved in this case were grossly and, in my mind, ciminally, negligent. Until those guilty are properly deal ...[text shortened]... g a table-leg and on the whims of an anonymous 'phone-call from a member of the public.
Well, one is too many, of course, but you cite the only two that have occurred in the last eight years, and come to the same conclusion as those with 20/20 hindsight.
Go back another year and you have James Ashley on the South coast, but then you have to jump a whole 15 years to find the Stephen Waldorf shooting (which he amazingly survived).
Perspective please.
08 Nov 07
1 edit
Originally posted by ZadadkaAgain: How far do you think your reasoning goes? We already have that you think the death of an innocent at the hands of the police force is justifiable collateral damage.
Too many innocents have been killed?
Well, one is too many, of course, but you cite the only two that have occurred in the last eight years, and come to the same conclusion as those with 20/20 hindsight.
Go back another year and you have James Ashley on the South coast, but then you have to jump a whole 15 years to find the Stephen Waldorf shooting (which he amazingly survived).
Perspective please.
What else is justifiable then?
08 Nov 07
Originally posted by PalynkaAt no stage have I stated it as justifiable...the closest I've come is to say that when mistakes are made, it is tragic, and that remains the case.
Again: How far do you think your reasoning goes? We already have that you think the death of an innocent at the hands of the police force is justifiable collateral damage.
What else is justifiable then?
I've supported my reasoning for retaining the asset of a successful commander, but I haven't seen a good reason for him to stand down for an isolated event occurring in increasingly panicked circumstances after communications between teams clearly failed "on the day".
I cannot answer your "what else" question, since it would be pure speculation.