Debates Forum

Debates Forum

  1. Standard memberRJHinds
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    10 Nov '15 23:531 edit
    Originally posted by no1marauder
    This page is helpful: https://www.ssa.gov/OACT/ProgData/fundFAQ.html#&a0=2

    Specifically: Money flowing into the trust funds is invested in U. S. Government securities. Because the government spends this borrowed cash, some people see the trust fund assets as an accumulation of securities that the government will be unable to make good on in the future ...[text shortened]... re, just as safe as U.S. Savings Bonds or other financial instruments of the Federal government.
    The problem is that there is no real money in the trust funds. It is all on paper and we are nearly $19 trillion in debt. There has been no increase in the social security tax since 1990 and although the trust funds are backed by the full faith and credit of the U. S. Government, it is feared that too little is being done to prevent the U.S. Government from going bankrupt so they won't be able to pay back money owed to the Trust Fund, especially since the Supreme Court has already ruled, as I understand it, that Social Security is not a contractual obligation and Congress can change it at will..
  2. Subscriberno1marauder
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    11 Nov '15 00:46
    Originally posted by RJHinds
    The problem is that there is no real money in the trust funds. It is all on paper and we are nearly $19 trillion in debt. There has been no increase in the social security tax since 1990 and although the trust funds are backed by the full faith and credit of the U. S. Government, it is feared that too little is being done to prevent the U.S. Government fro ...[text shortened]... nd it, that Social Security is not a contractual obligation and Congress can change it at will..
    The US government can't go "bankrupt" so the whole thing is just fear-mongering. Congress can change the benefits formula and other features of SS but the idea that they would do so in a way that would screw beneficiaries of this immensely popular system is a fantasy (unless the most extreme wing of the Republican party gets it way).
  3. The Catbird's Seat
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    11 Nov '15 00:47
    Originally posted by no1marauder
    You are grossly misinformed:

    As a result of changes to Social Security enacted in 1983, benefits are now expected to be payable in full on a timely basis until 2037, when the trust fund reserves are projected to become exhausted.1 At the point where the reserves are used up, continuing taxes are expected to be enough to pay 76 percent of scheduled ben ...[text shortened]... he end of the projection period in 2089.

    https://www.socialsecurity.gov/OACT/TRSUM/index.html
    The 2037 number did not include dipping into it to keep Medicare solvent, and in case you didn't notice we are only about two decades from 2037 as it is. About a year and a half ago, we began paying out more than goes into the "trust fund".

    The trouble is that this is an accounting gimmick, where the "trust fund" only means anything as long as the general fund can repay it. With the national debt approaching $20 trillion, it is entirely possible, no probable that the general fund will have other creditors demanding their money ahead of the SS trust fund.
  4. Subscriberno1marauder
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    11 Nov '15 02:021 edit
    Originally posted by normbenign
    The 2037 number did not include dipping into it to keep Medicare solvent, and in case you didn't notice we are only about two decades from 2037 as it is. About a year and a half ago, we began paying out more than goes into the "trust fund".

    The trouble is that this is an accounting gimmick, where the "trust fund" only means anything as long as the gen ...[text shortened]... hat the general fund will have other creditors demanding their money ahead of the SS trust fund.
    Your last sentence is nonsense. The Trust Funds holds securities issued by the Federal government; no one has priority over those. Perhaps you think holding government securities is an "accounting gimmick" but that is another one of your bizarre personal beliefs. Others can "demand" whatever they please, but SS has been repaid on time with interest on every security it has held that matured. Your blustering ignorance doesn't change that fact.
  5. Standard memberRJHinds
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    11 Nov '15 04:02
    Originally posted by no1marauder
    The US government can't go "bankrupt" so the whole thing is just fear-mongering. Congress can change the benefits formula and other features of SS but the idea that they would do so in a way that would screw beneficiaries of this immensely popular system is a fantasy (unless the most extreme wing of the Republican party gets it way).
    There are many people with greater financial knowledge than you that says the US Government can go bankrupt if we do not stop this out of control spending. Perhaps you have a different definition of "bankrupt" than they do. But I have a strong tendency to believe the experts over some nobody like you on RHP. 😏

    The Near Genius
  6. Standard memberRJHinds
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    11 Nov '15 04:05
    Originally posted by no1marauder
    Your last sentence is nonsense. The Trust Funds holds securities issued by the Federal government; no one has priority over those. Perhaps you think holding government securities is an "accounting gimmick" but that is another one of your bizarre personal beliefs. Others can "demand" whatever they please, but SS has been repaid on time with interest on every security it has held that matured. Your blustering ignorance doesn't change that fact.
    You can continue to believe what you wish, but I believe you are the ignorant one in this case. 😏
  7. Subscriberno1marauder
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    11 Nov '15 05:59
    Originally posted by RJHinds
    There are many people with greater financial knowledge than you that says the US Government can go bankrupt if we do not stop this out of control spending. Perhaps you have a different definition of "bankrupt" than they do. But I have a strong tendency to believe the experts over some nobody like you on RHP. 😏

    The Near Genius
    Are these the same "experts" that you rely on for your disbelief in evolution?

    Despite what some charlatans on YouTube might say the US cannot possibly go bankrupt; its assets far exceed even a $20 trillion debt. And rich folks wouldn't keep buying up the debt if they thought there was the tiniest chance their puppets in DC wouldn't pay in the end.
  8. Standard memberRJHinds
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    11 Nov '15 07:081 edit
    Originally posted by no1marauder
    Are these the same "experts" that you rely on for your disbelief in evolution?

    Despite what some charlatans on YouTube might say the US cannot possibly go bankrupt; its assets far exceed even a $20 trillion debt. And rich folks wouldn't keep buying up the debt if they thought there was the tiniest chance their puppets in DC wouldn't pay in the end.
    No, I was talking about the financial people that I mentioned earlier as the experts. I rely on other experts for the creation verses evolution debate.

    Even Obama said If We Don't Pass Obamacare, 'The Federal Government Will Go Bankrupt'

    YouTube
  9. The Catbird's Seat
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    12 Nov '15 03:08
    Originally posted by no1marauder
    Your last sentence is nonsense. The Trust Funds holds securities issued by the Federal government; no one has priority over those. Perhaps you think holding government securities is an "accounting gimmick" but that is another one of your bizarre personal beliefs. Others can "demand" whatever they please, but SS has been repaid on time with interest on every security it has held that matured. Your blustering ignorance doesn't change that fact.
    The Chinese have also bought securities issued by the Federal government. Probably more than the SS trust fund. The largest lender also holds the heaviest hammer when it comes time to collect.

    Other foreign and domestic investors have bought the same securities, and it is your ignorance that refuses to believe that anyone could exert greater force than the American senior. There is no money in the Social Security trust fund, only IOUs.

    You tell me how the national debt is going to be paid in the next two decades, if ever.
  10. Subscriberno1marauder
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    12 Nov '15 03:11
    Originally posted by normbenign
    The Chinese have also bought securities issued by the Federal government. Probably more than the SS trust fund. The largest lender also holds the heaviest hammer when it comes time to collect.

    Other foreign and domestic investors have bought the same securities, and it is your ignorance that refuses to believe that anyone could exert greater force th ...[text shortened]... Us.

    You tell me how the national debt is going to be paid in the next two decades, if ever.
    Tell what paper money is?

    I don't have time right now to bother to find a link, but what the Chinese hold as a share of the debt isn't anywhere near what the Trust Funds assets are.
  11. The Catbird's Seat
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    12 Nov '15 03:20
    Originally posted by no1marauder
    Are these the same "experts" that you rely on for your disbelief in evolution?

    Despite what some charlatans on YouTube might say the US cannot possibly go bankrupt; its assets far exceed even a $20 trillion debt. And rich folks wouldn't keep buying up the debt if they thought there was the tiniest chance their puppets in DC wouldn't pay in the end.
    Rich folks have been wrong before, as when lots of them were jumping out of Wall Street windows, in 1928.
  12. The Catbird's Seat
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    12 Nov '15 03:231 edit
    Originally posted by no1marauder
    Tell what paper money is?

    I don't have time right now to bother to find a link, but what the Chinese hold as a share of the debt isn't anywhere near what the Trust Funds assets are.
    Paper money is usually considered counterfeiting, even when done by the government. With no backing, it can result in hyperinflation, and general panic as has occurred in many places that did not even have near the national debt of the US.

    It wasn't that hard. Took maybe 15 seconds.
    http://usgovinfo.about.com/od/moneymatters/ss/How-Much-US-Debt-Does-China-Own.htm

    A bit dated, but I'm pretty sure the percentages remain accurate. 68% is held by foreign governments and individual foreign or domestic investors. China's share at that point was a bit over a trillion dollars.
  13. Standard memberRJHinds
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    12 Nov '15 06:092 edits
    Originally posted by no1marauder
    Tell what paper money is?

    I don't have time right now to bother to find a link, but what the Chinese hold as a share of the debt isn't anywhere near what the Trust Funds assets are.
    So you think the debt can be paid off by the US Mint just printing out more coins and paper money? 😀

    You don't get it. There is no real money in the Trust Fund to make assets. It is all just accounting if it is ever printed on paper.
  14. Subscriberno1marauder
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    12 Nov '15 07:48
    Originally posted by normbenign
    Paper money is usually considered counterfeiting, even when done by the government. With no backing, it can result in hyperinflation, and general panic as has occurred in many places that did not even have near the national debt of the US.

    It wasn't that hard. Took maybe 15 seconds.
    http://usgovinfo.about.com/od/moneymatters/ss/How-Much-US-Debt-Does ...[text shortened]... l foreign or domestic investors. China's share at that point was a bit over a trillion dollars.
    Right wing nuts have been yelping about the possibility of hyperinflation because of the rising national debt for a while but unfortunately back on Planet Earth inflation remains very low in the US.

    Paper money, like bonds or other securities, is essentially an IOU. The securities the Trust Fund has are actually better than paper money as they pay interest.
  15. Subscribersonhouse
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    12 Nov '15 13:30
    Originally posted by normbenign
    For me, the difference between almost $4 per gallon gas, and the current price means more to me than the $20 increase I got in SS last year.

    Gasoline prices don't mean as much as they did when I was fuelling a delivery vehicle, but gas is still at or near the top of my manageable expenses. Any thing that costs more is not manageable.

    On medical exp ...[text shortened]... gasoline purchases each month, but did not do so a year or two ago when gas prices were higher.
    I an one of those seniors with full time jobs and SS, so I usually get some kind of raise due to just working, not much however. The deal works like this: Suppose this year is a high wage year, it replaces a lower wage year in the past and your SS goes up some. The kicker is, for instance, in 1968 I earned $6000 or so. SS people adjust that to 2013 dollars, which turns out to be something like $35K of 2013 money. So in order to beat the system, you have to be able to replace the 1968 report with higher than $35K of today's money. I have done that for the last few years but the amount of increase is next to nothing, like $5 a month or so. So the SS tax I still pay in, $3500 a year, for a 5 dollar a month increase in SS because I am working full time......
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