1. Standard memberAThousandYoung
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    03 Jun '11 18:366 edits
    Originally posted by FMF
    You're clearly missing the point. Or perhaps you are uncomfortable with it. When someone argues that "many British speakers of English have a broader vocabulary than Americans" does it make you feel a little bit defensive - or something - about your own culture?
    Why do you say "many British speakers" but then "Americans"?

    Show me the Brit that has a broader vocabulary than I do.

    See also Thread 79223 page 8-9.
  2. The Catbird's Seat
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    03 Jun '11 18:46
    Originally posted by Teinosuke
    A boy who is bidden to spell "debt", and very properly spells it "d - e - t", is caned for not spelling it with a "b" because Julius Caesar spelt it with a "b".
    George Bernard Shaw

    Should English spelling be reformed to make it more consistent and phonetically accurate?
    Your example ignores the root of the word debt which would be the accounting term debit, so although the b is silent it is meaningful when written.

    What bothers me is the caning. Bad enough that the little rascal has to write it 50 times.
  3. Joined
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    03 Jun '11 19:30
    Originally posted by Teinosuke
    A boy who is bidden to spell "debt", and very properly spells it "d - e - t", is caned for not spelling it with a "b" because Julius Caesar spelt it with a "b".
    George Bernard Shaw

    Should English spelling be reformed to make it more consistent and phonetically accurate?
    Know.
  4. Joined
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    03 Jun '11 23:041 edit
    Originally posted by normbenign
    Your example ignores the root of the word debt which would be the accounting term debit, so although the b is silent it is meaningful when written.

    What bothers me is the caning. Bad enough that the little rascal has to write it 50 times.
    So the question then becomes whether the etymological information provided by that silent "b" is sufficiently useful to be worth preserving confusing irregularities of spelling.

    Bernard Shaw died in 1950, so the caning was a long time ago.
  5. Standard memberwolfgang59
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    04 Jun '11 04:28
    Originally posted by Teinosuke
    A boy who is bidden to spell "debt", and very properly spells it "d - e - t", is caned for not spelling it with a "b" because Julius Caesar spelt it with a "b".
    George Bernard Shaw

    Should English spelling be reformed to make it more consistent and phonetically accurate?
    phonetically accurate for whom?

    ask 4 people from Essex, Somerset, Yorkshire and Surrey
    how to pronounce bath and you will get
    barf, barrth, bath and barth.
  6. Standard memberAThousandYoung
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    04 Jun '11 20:10
    Originally posted by wolfgang59
    phonetically accurate for whom?

    ask 4 people from Essex, Somerset, Yorkshire and Surrey
    how to pronounce bath and you will get
    barf, barrth, bath and barth.
    Standard English.
  7. Joined
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    04 Jun '11 22:521 edit
    Originally posted by AThousandYoung
    Standard English.
    Standard British English, or standard American English?

    Or should British and American spelling be obliged to diverge even further to achieve phonetic accuracy on the basis of each standard?
  8. Standard memberAThousandYoung
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    04 Jun '11 23:27
    Originally posted by Teinosuke
    Standard British English, or standard American English?

    Or should British and American spelling be obliged to diverge even further to achieve phonetic accuracy on the basis of each standard?
    Doesn't matter which standard. Pick one. British, why not. It's their language.
  9. Standard memberwolfgang59
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    05 Jun '11 01:35
    Originally posted by AThousandYoung
    Doesn't matter which standard. Pick one. British, why not. It's their language.
    How can a language belong to anyone? Calling the language "English" is just a name. It could be called American or neo-anglo-saxon or qwerty. And as for a British Standard English ... I've never come across such a thing. The OED always gives alternative regional pronunciations and usage and also dialect words.

    As a teacher I am well aware of the difficulties of teaching reading and writing and maybe there are some small anomalies we can get rid of but major changes NO.
  10. Standard memberAThousandYoung
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    05 Jun '11 01:391 edit
    Originally posted by wolfgang59
    How can a language belong to anyone? Calling the language "English" is just a name. It could be called American or neo-anglo-saxon or qwerty. And as for a British Standard English ... I've never come across such a thing. The OED always gives alternative regional pronunciations and usage and also dialect words.

    As a teacher I am well aware of the diffic ...[text shortened]... and writing and maybe there are some small anomalies we can get rid of but major changes NO.
    Also known as "The Queen's English".

    YouTube

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Received_Pronunciation
  11. Joined
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    05 Jun '11 12:15
    Originally posted by wolfgang59
    How can a language belong to anyone? Calling the language "English" is just a name. It could be called American or neo-anglo-saxon or qwerty. And as for a British Standard English ... I've never come across such a thing. The OED always gives alternative regional pronunciations and usage and also dialect words.

    As a teacher I am well aware of the diffic ...[text shortened]... and writing and maybe there are some small anomalies we can get rid of but major changes NO.
    I agree. Minor tinkerings would be fine - for instance, I think it would be entirely reasonable for us to start writing "thro" and "tho" instead of "through" and "though", as a lot of writers were doing in the eighteenth century. But I think any attempt at a major restructuring might prove both controversial and counterproductive. Although, I suppose the sum total of lots of minor tinkerings over time might end up being a major tinkering.
  12. Germany
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    05 Jun '11 12:19
    Originally posted by AThousandYoung
    Also known as "The Queen's English".

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2JIsnD-50Og

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Received_Pronunciation
    The Queen's English has actually changed over the years.
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    05 Jun '11 12:272 edits
    Originally posted by AThousandYoung
    Doesn't matter which standard. Pick one. British, why not. It's their language.
    Another issue is that spelling doesn't serve only to illustrate sound, but also makes other connections. Someone pointed out earlier in the thread, I think, that the "ph" at the beginning of "photography" indicates its Greek derivation, an indication lost in Spanish where the cognate word is spelled with an "f".

    That may sound like a pedant's complaint. But consider too that words related in meaning may actually sound rather different to each other in speech. "Photography", with its muted first syllable and strong second-syllable stress, is pronounced "fuhtogruhfee", while "photograph", with its first-syllable stress, is more like "foatuhgraf." And in the short form "photo" has a distinct long vowel both times, "foatoa". So genuinely phonetic (fuhnetik?) spelling would often obscure the connections in meaning between related words.
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    05 Jun '11 12:42
    Indonesian is a 'see it, read it, sounds like it's written, write it like it's said, no messing about' language. Makes it relatively easy to learn.

    The only irregularity is a remnant from the bygone Dutch imperial age: "oe", pronounced 'oo', once used in the place of "u"; nowadays we write Kupang [city in West Timor], once spelt "Koepang"; Suharto - the 'New Order' spelling, as opposed to Soeharto, the valid spelling when he was born which was, incidentally, technically 'banned' by his regime in around 1974.
  15. Santiago
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    05 Jun '11 15:58
    Originally posted by AThousandYoung
    It is broken. It makes it harder to teach people to read and write.
    Harder than what/when?

    Harder for who/whom?

    Students of other generations managed to learn it. Is this not just another step in dumbing down society? Is that not what governments and tv executives want?

    Does little Jimmy need help because the language is broken, or society is broken. Little Jimmy couldn't give a toss in class, so let's make it easier for the grunt to pass state literacy tests.
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