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Debates Forum

Debates Forum

  1. Subscriber WoodPush
    Pusher of wood
    16 Sep '11 00:24
    http://dailycaller.com/2011/09/15/moveon-org-u-s-rep-promoting-student-loan-debt-forgiveness/

    What do you think?
  2. 16 Sep '11 00:48
    Originally posted by WoodPush
    http://dailycaller.com/2011/09/15/moveon-org-u-s-rep-promoting-student-loan-debt-forgiveness/

    What do you think?
    Seeing as how they can't find work, I'm all for it. Secondary education should be free anyway. Call me a socialist.
  3. 16 Sep '11 01:21
    Originally posted by Kunsoo
    Seeing as how they can't find work, I'm all for it. Secondary education should be free anyway. Call me a socialist.
    Nothing of value is free.
  4. 16 Sep '11 01:28
    Originally posted by normbenign
    Nothing of value is free.
    Is that one of your universal maxims?
  5. 16 Sep '11 04:14
    Originally posted by Kunsoo
    Seeing as how they can't find work, I'm all for it. Secondary education should be free anyway. Call me a socialist.
    socialist...... I'm or it too.... call me a softie...
  6. 16 Sep '11 04:14
    Originally posted by generalissimo
    Is that one of your universal maxims?
    should be.... say do you sell plasma...?
  7. 16 Sep '11 04:41
    Originally posted by normbenign
    Nothing of value is free.
    The sunset's free.
  8. Subscriber FMF
    a.k.a. John W Booth
    16 Sep '11 04:51
    Originally posted by normbenign
    Nothing of value is free.
    So you won't be wanting my free advice, then.
  9. Standard member sh76
    Civis Americanus Sum
    16 Sep '11 13:04 / 2 edits
    Originally posted by WoodPush
    http://dailycaller.com/2011/09/15/moveon-org-u-s-rep-promoting-student-loan-debt-forgiveness/

    What do you think?
    That has got to me moveon's dumbest idea of all time; and that's saying something. It's the ultimate antithesis of personal responsibility.

    So, now, if you were stupid enough to go into debt 6 figures to choose to go to University of Florida to drink and party for 5 years and majored in Greek architecture that qualifies you to work at Starbucks, you get this enormous benefit. But if you scrimped and saved and worked your way through Podunk Community College and became a nurse without a dime of government money, you get severely punished by having your tax dollars go to subsidize the lazy idiot's spending on frivolities???

    Really. If you want to give people money and that's the end result of your plan, then just write everyone a check.

    That is about the dumbest, most morally reprehensible economic stimulus idea I have ever heard.

    No exaggeration.
  10. Standard member sh76
    Civis Americanus Sum
    16 Sep '11 13:09 / 1 edit
    These kinds of ideas make me angry. While my political opinions are closer to the Democrats right now than to the Tea Party, I can't sympathize with the left because they so often generate this sort of rubbish that passes for "ideas." This idea says IGNORE personal responsibility. You made a bad decision? No sweat. Papa and Mama Government will wipe your slate clean. Where will we get the money? No problem. We'll just soak the responsible people. After all, you're "entitled" to a free ride.

    Ugh. I think I'm gonna puke.
  11. Subscriber Sleepyguy
    Reepy Rastardly Guy
    16 Sep '11 15:49
    Originally posted by sh76
    These kinds of ideas make me angry. While my political opinions are closer to the Democrats right now than to the Tea Party, I can't sympathize with the left because they so often generate this sort of rubbish that passes for "ideas." This idea says IGNORE personal responsibility. You made a bad decision? No sweat. Papa and Mama Government will wipe your slate ...[text shortened]... le people. After all, you're "entitled" to a free ride.

    Ugh. I think I'm gonna puke.
    Aw shucks, you tea partier you.
  12. 16 Sep '11 16:02
    Originally posted by sh76
    These kinds of ideas make me angry. While my political opinions are closer to the Democrats right now than to the Tea Party, I can't sympathize with the left because they so often generate this sort of rubbish that passes for "ideas." This idea says IGNORE personal responsibility. You made a bad decision? No sweat. Papa and Mama Government will wipe your slate ...[text shortened]... le people. After all, you're "entitled" to a free ride.

    Ugh. I think I'm gonna puke.
    My boss, a senior researcher who has many publications including in Science, spent 7 years on his Master's, not really sure whether he wanted to pursue physics or some other discipline. Thanks to the generous Finnish system (no tuition, various benefits) this was a possibility - if he had to pay large tuition fees he probably would have dropped out.

    Having "free" tertiary education may reward some freeloaders - but it also ensures more people are educated and makes sure education is a matter of working, not daddy's money. The benefits outweigh the costs.
  13. Subscriber WoodPush
    Pusher of wood
    16 Sep '11 16:09
    Originally posted by sh76
    These kinds of ideas make me angry. While my political opinions are closer to the Democrats right now than to the Tea Party, I can't sympathize with the left because they so often generate this sort of rubbish that passes for "ideas." This idea says IGNORE personal responsibility. You made a bad decision? No sweat. Papa and Mama Government will wipe your slate ...[text shortened]... le people. After all, you're "entitled" to a free ride.

    Ugh. I think I'm gonna puke.
    I like the fact that it's targeting a segment that really needs it - there are a lot of kids out there that really did work hard through college, really do want jobs, really do have skills to offer, and really didn't party their way through school.

    And the measure would help those young adults - but ultimately I have to agree with you. It doesn't help in the right way. We really need to stop giving away free checks. People want and need jobs, not giveaways.

    I don't agree with you that these kids ignored personal responsibility or made bad decisions. But I do agree completely that the proposal is really missing the point and sends the wrong message.
  14. Standard member sh76
    Civis Americanus Sum
    16 Sep '11 16:18
    Originally posted by KazetNagorra
    My boss, a senior researcher who has many publications including in Science, spent 7 years on his Master's, not really sure whether he wanted to pursue physics or some other discipline. Thanks to the generous Finnish system (no tuition, various benefits) this was a possibility - if he had to pay large tuition fees he probably would have dropped out.

    ...[text shortened]... s sure education is a matter of working, not daddy's money. The benefits outweigh the costs.
    Okay, to start, maybe higher ed should be provided freely, but that has nothing to do with excusing people for past debts.

    Second, most college students in the US are eligible for government assistance that makes college quite cheap. Pell grants cover a substantial amount and low interest Stafford loans that don't have to be repaid until starting 6 months after graduation make up the difference.

    But you have to also be smart about it. You can go to a state school or a cheaper private school where tuition is under $10k/year or you can go to some enormous party school and pay $40k. Even if the govt did provide completely free higher ed (as New York City used to), there would still be expensive private schools to choose from as well.

    I'm not opposed to studying the idea of providing free college at government schools to people, but there would still be choice and still be responsibility. To simply let everyone who already made their choices off the hook for no good reason while giving no similar benefit to those who were responsible is reprehensible.
  15. Standard member spruce112358
    Democracy Advocate
    16 Sep '11 16:23
    Originally posted by KazetNagorra
    My boss, a senior researcher who has many publications including in Science, spent 7 years on his Master's, not really sure whether he wanted to pursue physics or some other discipline. Thanks to the generous Finnish system (no tuition, various benefits) this was a possibility - if he had to pay large tuition fees he probably would have dropped out.

    ...[text shortened]... s sure education is a matter of working, not daddy's money. The benefits outweigh the costs.
    American universities have let in large numbers of foreigners whose tuition is paid by their respective governments. This has driven costs through the roof. The average American student cannot compete with the government of Taiwan.

    State colleges in the US should admit predominantly Americans to their programs -- exactly like the vaunted Finnish system (which restricts foreigners from applying because it requires them to speak Finnish -- very few do.) Then the US system can go back to being low-cost.