Please turn on javascript in your browser to play chess.
Debates Forum

Debates Forum

  1. 10 Nov '09 19:17
    http://townhall.com/columnists/JohnHawkins/2009/11/10/4_reasons_the_american_dream_will_be_over_unless_we_act

    Tuesday, November 10, 2009

    4 Reasons The American Dream Will Be Over Unless We Act
    by John Hawkins

    "Make no mistake about it, this generation is a generation of thieves and the people who stole their parents and their children’s money to make their own lives cushier are at it again. This time the target is their grandchildren." -- Evan Sayet

    Throughout American history, generations of our countrymen took pride in leaving the country better than the one they grew up in. Their attitude about sacrifice was summed up by this classic quotation from Tom Paine:

    "If there must be trouble, let it be in my day, that my child may have peace."

    That is no longer the spirit that animates our leaders or much of our country. Today, it's,

    "If there must be trouble, let our children and grandchildren handle it, so that I am not inconvenienced."

    History is full of great nations that have fallen from their lofty perches back into the ranks and the United States is likely to be among them unless we change our attitude about the following issues:

    1) Takers Vs. Producers: "In 1985, just 16.5% of filers paid no income tax." Today, "roughly 120 million Americans – 40 percent of the U.S. population – are outside of the federal income tax system."

    Meanwhile, the top 50% of income earners pay 97% percent of the income taxes. "In 1945, 41.9 workers supported each (Social Security recipient), while today only 3.3 workers support each retiree." That number will continue to shrink.

    In other words, we're developing into a two-tiered society. Some people like to think of it as the "haves" and "have nots." However, it would be more apt to describe it as the people who pay the bills and the people who live off of the fruits of their labor.

    ...
  2. 10 Nov '09 19:26
    Originally posted by zeeblebot
    http://townhall.com/columnists/JohnHawkins/2009/11/10/4_reasons_the_american_dream_will_be_over_unless_we_act

    Tuesday, November 10, 2009

    4 Reasons The American Dream Will Be Over Unless We Act
    by John Hawkins

    "Make no mistake about it, this generation is a generation of thieves and the people who stole their parents and their children’s mone ...[text shortened]... ay the bills and the people who live off of the fruits of their labor.

    ...
    So are you in favor of requiring people in that bottom 40% to pay more in taxes? And would you favor raising the retirement age until there are, say 10 workers for every retiree?
  3. 10 Nov '09 19:30
    The American Dream is already a dream - fiction, and precisely because of the opposite of what the article suggests - income inequality is too high.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_income_equality
  4. 10 Nov '09 19:47
    Originally posted by Melanerpes
    So are you in favor of requiring people in that bottom 40% to pay more in taxes? And would you favor raising the retirement age until there are, say 10 workers for every retiree?
    no. let's bring back the CCC.
  5. Subscriber AThousandYoung
    It's only business
    10 Nov '09 20:34
    Originally posted by zeeblebot
    http://townhall.com/columnists/JohnHawkins/2009/11/10/4_reasons_the_american_dream_will_be_over_unless_we_act

    Tuesday, November 10, 2009

    4 Reasons The American Dream Will Be Over Unless We Act
    by John Hawkins

    "Make no mistake about it, this generation is a generation of thieves and the people who stole their parents and their children’s mone ...[text shortened]... ay the bills and the people who live off of the fruits of their labor.

    ...
    Ban inheritance and we can talk.

    Inheritance breaks the game.
  6. 10 Nov '09 20:56
    if your folks will you the house are you gonna turn it down?
  7. Subscriber AThousandYoung
    It's only business
    10 Nov '09 21:00 / 1 edit
    Originally posted by zeeblebot
    if your folks will you the house are you gonna turn it down?
    No, because even if the game is unfair, it is the way it is, and I'll play it by the rules. However I won't complain about taxes.

    Anyway, my folks don't own a house. If we get a house I will be putting in at the very least my share of the payments.

    We're clannish...my parents, sister, and I like to live together. It's a Mexican thing.
  8. 12 Nov '09 02:12
    Originally posted by Melanerpes
    So are you in favor of requiring people in that bottom 40% to pay more in taxes? And would you favor raising the retirement age until there are, say 10 workers for every retiree?
    If the bottom 40% doesn't pay some taxes, they have no stake in paying government's bills. Considering income taxes only, it is nearly 50% that pay no taxes, or pay negative taxes, that is get direct refund of tax money they never paid. This 50% has no interest in proposals to reduce taxes, as they pay none or less than none.

    We have come to accept progressive taxation as "fair", however even a flat income tax would be a far heavier burden on earners with larger incomes, but everyone would have a share in supporting government.

    At this point, its a bit late in the game to save SS with raising the retirement age, not to mention this would and already does represent fraud, the government again breaking its promises to the people. Any clear thinker knows that in the early '30s when SS was proposed and designed, life expectancy was significantly below age 65. Furthermore, SS has added additional beneficiaries over time which dilutes the retirement funding.

    A restoration of the original intent and understanding of the general welfare clause of the Constitution is definitely in order if the United States is to avoid becoming a third world welfare State, the Zimbabwe of North America.
  9. 12 Nov '09 02:14
    Originally posted by AThousandYoung
    No, because even if the game is unfair, it is the way it is, and I'll play it by the rules. However I won't complain about taxes.

    Anyway, my folks don't own a house. If we get a house I will be putting in at the very least my share of the payments.

    We're clannish...my parents, sister, and I like to live together. It's a Mexican thing.
    Never mind the house. What is wrong with inheritance? I don't have much, but if I can't pass on what I have to my chosen beneficiaries, I'd destroy it before giving it to the government.
  10. 12 Nov '09 02:19
    Originally posted by KazetNagorra
    The American Dream is already a dream - fiction, and precisely because of the opposite of what the article suggests - income inequality is too high.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_income_equality
    Where has there ever been an egalitarian society, really. That is the pipe dream.
  11. Standard member telerion
    True X X Xian
    12 Nov '09 03:00 / 1 edit
    Originally posted by zeeblebot
    http://townhall.com/columnists/JohnHawkins/2009/11/10/4_reasons_the_american_dream_will_be_over_unless_we_act

    Tuesday, November 10, 2009

    4 Reasons The American Dream Will Be Over Unless We Act
    by John Hawkins

    "Make no mistake about it, this generation is a generation of thieves and the people who stole their parents and their children’s mone ay the bills and the people who live off of the fruits of their labor.

    ...
    I commented on this a while back. I was pointing out that many of the low-income hicks that bitch and moan at tea parties and the like aren't really paying much in taxes. Needless to say the rightwingers here didn't pick up the article and run with it.

    It should be noted that this is an uncharacteristically high number. It is so high this year because of the tax cuts in Obama's stimulus package.

    Also if you buy into this "producers vs. takers" dichotomy, then let me warn you that just because you earn above the median household income (that's about 48K in the US) doesn't mean you should feel like a producer.

    The bottom 80% (under $105K) pay less than 10% of total income taxes and less than a third of all federal taxes.

    http://www.taxpolicycenter.org/UploadedPDF/411943_distribution_federal.pdf

    So to the rightwingers who embrace this us vs them paradigm, unless you're making well above 100K, you're probably a taker.
  12. Subscriber FMF
    a.k.a. John W Booth
    12 Nov '09 04:50
    Originally posted by normbenign
    If the bottom 40% doesn't pay some taxes, they have no stake in paying government's bills. Considering income taxes only, it is nearly 50% that pay no taxes, or pay negative taxes, that is get direct refund of tax money they never paid.
    240 years into your "As Good As Capitalism Gets" project, and half the working people in your economy don't earn enough money to qualify to pay tax? Good grief.
  13. Subscriber AThousandYoung
    It's only business
    12 Nov '09 06:08 / 2 edits
    Originally posted by normbenign
    Never mind the house. What is wrong with inheritance? I don't have much, but if I can't pass on what I have to my chosen beneficiaries, I'd destroy it before giving it to the government.
    When inheritances get huge, they tie up vast amounts of wealth which would otherwise be circulating. The Right to Own Property does not allow for vastly wealthy people to own nearly everything. In fact, many of the Founding Fathers and many of today's multimillionaires disagree with you:

    About 120 multimillionaires took out a full-page ad in The New York Times earlier this month to warn that repealing the inheritance tax "would enrich the heirs of America's millionaires and billionaires, while hurting families who struggle to make ends meet." Among those signing the petition are financier George Soros, David Rockefeller Jr. and Steven Rockefeller of the Rockefellers, Ben Cohen of Ben & Jerry's ice cream, and William Gates Sr., father of the founder of Microsoft Corp.

    "We have come closer to a true meritocracy than anywhere else in the world," billionaire businessman Warren Buffett, reputedly the fourth-richest man in America, told the Times (Buffett, however, did not sign the petition). "You have mobility, so people with talents can be put to the best use. Without the estate tax, you in effect will have an aristocracy of wealth, which means you pass down the ability to command the resources of the nation based on heredity rather than merit."

    http://www.citypaper.com/printStory.asp?id=2141
  14. 13 Nov '09 00:54
    Originally posted by AThousandYoung
    No, because even if the game is unfair, it is the way it is, and I'll play it by the rules. However I won't complain about taxes.

    Anyway, my folks don't own a house. If we get a house I will be putting in at the very least my share of the payments.

    We're clannish...my parents, sister, and I like to live together. It's a Mexican thing.
    my family inherited that mexican thing, except me.
  15. 13 Nov '09 01:00 / 3 edits
    a new thread!:

    why do all these anti-creationists think they can buck evolution? ....

    (punchline) @ Thread 121705