Please turn on javascript in your browser to play chess.
Debates Forum

Debates Forum

  1. 13 Jun '13 09:54
    By Joe Klein
    June 10, 2013
    TIME magazine
    . . . the National Security Agency–leaks nonscandal.

    First of all, we pretty much knew everything that has “broken” in the past week. The NSA has been involved in a legal data-mining operation for almost a decade. . . . It has been described, incorrectly, as electronic eavesdropping. What is really happening is that phone and Internet records are being scanned for patterns that might illuminate terrorist networks. . .

    Those who see the federal government as a vast corporate conspiracy or a criminal enterprise — in other words, paranoids . . . More moderate sorts should also have cause for concern — especially if a rogue government, like Nixon’s, were in power. We have to remain vigilant that the snooping stays within reasonable bounds; that’s why we have congressional oversight committees. And that’s where the paranoid tinge comes in: the FISA court, the congressional committees, the President and journalists like me are obviously incompetent or caught up in the conspiracy. Of course, there has been absolutely no evidence presented that the current parameters are unreasonable. Yes, I expect that some of my phone and e-mail traffic has been picked up in the data trawling. I travel fairly frequently to places like Iran, Afghanistan, Egypt, the West Bank . . . I have no problem with the government knowing that I’m doing my job.

    I do have a problem with individuals like Bradley Manning divulging secrets that may well put lives in danger . . .

    This is a difficult issue and will become even more difficult in the future as technology becomes more sophisticated. I applaud civil libertarians like Glenn Greenwald who draw our attention to it. But it is important to keep it in perspective. Far too many people get their notions of what our government is all about from Hollywood; the paranoid thriller is a wonderful form of entertainment, but it’s a fantasy. The idea that our government is some sort of conspiracy, that it’s a somehow foreign body intent on robbing us of our freedoms, is corrosive and dangerous to our democracy. This remains, and always will be, an extremely libertarian country; it’s encoded in our DNA. We now face a constant, low-level terrorist threat that needs to be monitored. A great many lives are potentially at stake . . . In the end, the slippery-slope, all-or-nothing arguments advanced by extreme civil libertarians bear an uncomfortable resemblance to the slippery-slope, all-or-nothing arguments advanced by the National Rifle Association.
  2. Standard member empovsun
    Adepto 'er perfectu
    13 Jun '13 10:16
    its a good thing anonymous is still around to show us that not only have spy agencies have the capabilities to abuse their power, but that they already have abused them:

    http://www.thenation.com/blog/174741/how-spy-agency-contractors-have-already-abused-their-power#ixzz2W1kmn8FL
  3. 13 Jun '13 10:31
    Originally posted by empovsun
    its a good thing anonymous is still around to show us that not only have spy agencies have the capabilities to abuse their power, but that they already have abused them:

    http://www.thenation.com/blog/174741/how-spy-agency-contractors-have-already-abused-their-power#ixzz2W1kmn8FL
    So you disagree with Joe Klein?
  4. Subscriber no1marauder
    It's Nice to Be Nice
    14 Jun '13 20:49
    Originally posted by moon1969
    By Joe Klein
    June 10, 2013
    TIME magazine
    . . . the National Security Agency–leaks nonscandal.

    First of all, we pretty much knew everything that has “broken” in the past week. The NSA has been involved in a legal data-mining operation for almost a decade. . . . It has been described, incorrectly, as electronic eavesdropping. What is reall ...[text shortened]... the slippery-slope, all-or-nothing arguments advanced by the National Rifle Association.
    The expanded surveillance is a logical byproduct of the endless "War on Terror" that has been foisted on the American people. There seems no limit, as there almost always is not, to what the Executive during a "war" is willing to do. And that applies even to our greatest Presidents: Lincoln illegally suspended habeas corpus, FDR authorized the Japanese internment camps, etc.

    Madison had it right: "No nation could preserve its freedom in the midst of continual warfare."
  5. Standard member empovsun
    Adepto 'er perfectu
    16 Jun '13 06:33
    Originally posted by moon1969
    So you disagree with Joe Klein?
    gee, if you looked at my link then it would be plainly obvious what i thought about joe klein's head-in-the-sand democrat tactic

    here's a video from c-span with a democrat i actually agree with on this issue:
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L08DfDyUxSw

    at 17:30ish is my favorite part
    please, watch the video. its 25mins of relevant footage