The evils of socialism

Originally posted by normbenign
Surprising how true poverty motivates people to find means of subsistence.

Can you be specific about this "motivation"? What empirical link can you establish between "true poverty" and people's motivation to "find means of subsistence"?

Originally posted by Eladar
I have no problem with projects and soup lines. I think it makes much more sense than simply giving irresponsible people money.

Right wing U.S. citizens always need a scape goat. I predict the next one will not be people of color, or illegal immigrants but simply The Poor. Of course if you are poor it is your own damn fault and has nothing to do with Great Recessions triggered by corporations too big to fail or the lack of affordable education or skill training. I am amazed at how many on this site seem to think there is nothing wrong when rich, powerful corporations buy political power and influence but someone dressed too well or driving too nice a car for a soup line gets hammered. Really??? No one grumbles because FEMA comes in and gives mega dollars to rich folks who never should have built mega mansions on a beach bound to wash away in a hurricane. Of course since they have money, they must be good, honest, and deserving of government assistance.

Originally posted by Phranny
Right wing U.S. citizens always need a scape goat. I predict the next one will not be people of color, or illegal immigrants but simply The Poor. Of course if you are poor it is your own damn fault and has nothing to do with Great Recessions triggered by corporations too big to fail or the lack of affordable education or skill training. I am amazed at how ...[text shortened]... course since they have money, they must be good, honest, and deserving of government assistance.

If you have nothing because you are unwilling to work, then it is your fault.

The Bible teaches that if a person is unwilling to work, then the person should not be given food.

Originally posted by normbenign
Surprising how true poverty motivates people to find means of subsistence.

Like crime??
That is what happens when you ignore the poor.
And then we point at them accusingly for finding "their" means of subsistence.
of course it must be their fault they are poor.
even if it was their "fault", they are a product of "our" society. and need "our" help.

Originally posted by jimmac
Like crime??
That is what happens when you ignore the poor.
And then we point at them accusingly for finding "their" means of subsistence.
of course it must be their fault they are poor.
even if it was their "fault", they are a product of "our" society. and need "our" help.

We should pay people not to commit crimes against us?

In countries with social welfare systems who do you think features disproportionally high in crime stats? The gainfully employed or those poor folk we give money to so they wont commit crimes against us?

At least the Mafia are up front about asking for 'protection money'.

Originally posted by Wajoma
We should pay people not to commit crimes against us?

In countries with social welfare systems who do you think features disproportionally high in crime stats? The gainfully employed or those poor folk we give money to so they wont commit crimes against us?

At least the Mafia are up front about asking for 'protection money'.

I don't think people who do not commit crimes feature in crime stats.

Originally posted by KazetNagorra
I don't think people who do not commit crimes feature in crime stats.

Your lack wit diversion typifies you.

Originally posted by Wajoma
We should pay people not to commit crimes against us?

In countries with social welfare systems who do you think features disproportionally high in crime stats? The gainfully employed or those poor folk we give money to so they wont commit crimes against us?

At least the Mafia are up front about asking for 'protection money'.

there would be few that would doubt that meaningful employment is the best way to keep people occupied and therefore feeling valued and therefore, As a result, they tend to then commit less crime. But as employment is being denied to many ( oh I know, ho hum, I can hear the hollow sounding prattle of the unconvinced from here ) it is best to minimize the damage as much as we can.
Of course, logically, those with little income, no self worth and time on their hands ( not to mention, looked down upon by the self righteous, I did it, so can you lot ) will still commit the most crime.
The best answer is to create meaningful jobs, there are many ways to do that and dropping the minimum wage is the most stupid. all that means is that even though you work 2 jobs you still can not afford to live and will therefore have a higher propensity to commit crime. If you cannot earn it, steal it???.
I am not trying to justify crime here, I am trying to say that not helping those at the bottom only makes things worse.
I cannot quote where I read it but recently I read that the countries that have the highest wealth gap also have the highest crime rate. This decreased proportionally as one dropped, so did the other.
the reality,as I see it, is that we do not pay people not to commit crimes against us, but to show our humanity. You know what that is I take it?? though being human is not necessarily a good thing, I suspect, humanity means( to me at least) having the capacity to rise above all the filth that makes so many so overtly selfish. And that means HELPING others that can not or even will not help themselves.

Originally posted by jimmac
But as employment is being denied to many ( oh I know, ho hum, I can hear the hollow sounding prattle of the unconvinced from here )

Prattle is it? Hollow prattle?

I claim that no person is owed a job by any other person. If that is hollow prattle you'll be able to define who, precisely who, owes you a job, or anyone a job, let alone a job with certain conditions and wages. And don't say 'society' because that isn't a person, besides you'd get into the ludicrous situation where a man would owe himself employment.

Who owes you a job? Who owes me a job?

Prattle eh? Nope it's not, but your use of the word comes across as bluster, hollow bluster.

Originally posted by Wajoma
[b]Prattle is it? Hollow prattle?

I claim that no person is owed a job by any other person.

society as a collective whole owes a debt to that that it spawned as part of itself. one does not succeed without a society to thrive in, therefore a debt is due back in return. I dont recall saying that any ONE is owed a job, I stated that by creating meaningful jobs reduces crime. I agree that no person is OWED a job, simply that work is necessary for self worth and that would reduce the crime rate. employment IS being denied to many the more productive society is becoming. I remember in the 60's being promised a bright future the more technological we became. Working less hours with time to relax, the benefits of productivity. Now we are told that the better we do, as a collective, the longer we have to work before we can retire and the less we will get paid for it as well.. The jobs are being " stolen" by the multinationals and all the productivity gains benefit only a select few.. I think not seeing that is just dumb, But then maybe its just me, who knows.

Originally posted by jimmac
society as a collective whole owes a debt to that that it spawned as part of itself. one does not succeed without a society to thrive in, therefore a debt is due back in return. I dont recall saying that any ONE is owed a job, I stated that by creating meaningful jobs reduces crime. I agree that no person is OWED a job, simply that work is necessary for self ...[text shortened]... only a select few.. I think not seeing that is just dumb, But then maybe its just me, who knows.

It is difficult to pay back those who have died.

It is not present society that needs to be paid back. Society is the work of better people than the ones sucking off the fruits of earlier generations.

Originally posted by jimmac
society as a collective whole owes a debt to that that it spawned as part of itself. one does not succeed without a society to thrive in, therefore a debt is due back in return. I dont recall saying that any ONE is owed a job, I stated that by creating meaningful jobs reduces crime. I agree that no person is OWED a job, simply that work is necessary for self ...[text shortened]... only a select few.. I think not seeing that is just dumb, But then maybe its just me, who knows.

If no-one is owed a job and you did not say anyone is owed a job and you agree no-one is owed a job, how can it be jobs are being denied?.

Society owes a debt to society? 😵 🙄

Originally posted by Eladar
It is difficult to pay back those who have died.

It is not present society that needs to be paid back. Society is the work of better people than the ones sucking off the fruits of earlier generations.

it may be more correct to state that present society needs to be paid back, but I will not debate that. by this I am referring to inherited wealth,but I have a concern about retrospective things of that nature.
Society is surely simply the work of people, and better is subjective but I would agree that there are many we could do without.

Originally posted by jimmac
it may be more correct to state that present society needs to be paid back, but I will not debate that. by this I am referring to inherited wealth,but I have a concern about retrospective things of that nature.
Society is surely simply the work of people, and better is subjective but I would agree that there are many we could do without.

Why should anyone need to pay back present society for what earlier generations built?

This generation did not build the interstate system. This generation did not build most of the infrastructure in this nation. Almost all the roads, bridges and railroads were built in earlier generations. We see very little for our taxes, except to have it given to big business or to those who won't work.

Originally posted by Wajoma
If no-one is owed a job and you did not say anyone is owed a job and you agree no-one is owed a job, how can it be jobs are being denied?.

Society owes a debt to society? 😵 🙄

society is by default a byproduct of itself, we "all owe" as a predominance to "are all due".
As stated in many other posts, productivity, for all the good it does do, does a lot of harm as well. This is, to me, the main place that jobs are being denied. And also, I dont know about in the US of A but in Aussie, the public services ( you know, those jobs that serve the public) are being depleted, to save money. And their wages are as low as possible. there are to many places that work is needed, yet there is no money to do it because selfish people do not believe in paying tax. ME ME ME. It does not work.
The better "I" am at "MY" job the less I will get paid, I state that as " fact". As I get better, the company finds that they need less of us, so they do not replace those that leave. Collectively, over all places of employment, this increases those that end up unemployed, then some bright spark comes along and says things like." with this high unemployment rate, we don't need to pay as much". and another bright spark comes along and says " if we drop the minimum pay maybe someone will create work for them". these may be correct statements in and of themselves but they predominantly/disproportionately help those at the top.
We might not be owed jobs yet we are entitled to one, if and to the extent that we are capable. I believe that everyone should have work if they want, and I am not stupid enough to believe that that is a simple statement. Those that are willing to work, should but if there is no fair paying work??
Society owing a debt to society is a bit like saying that we owe it to ourselves.