The Great Conservative Con

@Rajk999 said
I think that the 60 million poor Americans are far better off than the 60 million middle class people is many third world countries.

Nobody gets rich by working hard ... is a very vague statement. People can rise out of poverty by working hard and by making good decisions. Rich is different story. If you want to get rich then you need to be smart or lucky.

The prob ...[text shortened]... rialism is on the rise.
- people wait on the government for freebies

These things cause poverty.

You've just described people like Elon Musk, who has 12 children by 3 women, or Trump who has 5 children by 3 women, and is recorded as having cheated on every one of them.

Rich people are not more moral by any means; often it's the opposite. Even Jesus said it's nearly impossible for the rich to get into heaven with his "eye of the needle" comment. All the social problems you mention are also found among the rich, both before and after obtaining wealth.

@Rajk999 said
Maybe it does not work in your economy. That is fine but what I posted is factual. It could also be that what I posted requires time in years for the results to be seen and appreciated. You can see the principle of my post in real life with two families with same income. One saves, builds and invests, while the other spends on frivolous nonsense. It takes years to see the results.

This thread is specifically about trick-down economics. That's the belief that giving rich people higher tax breaks results in a better economy.

Having better principles or moralistic stances can lead to a better life. But giving rich people freebies never helps the economy.

@Rajk999 said
Its an unfortunate fact of life but it is true. And there is a simple way to prove it. Here it is:

- If you give 10,000 people $10,000 dollars each , thats $100,000,000, and 99% of that money will be spent on consumer goods, food, clothes etc. The trickle down is faster but then dies off. The money is consumed away
- If you give 5 businessmen who are already rich, $20 ...[text shortened]... hey drive the economy.

Production is what drives prosperity.
Consumption is the road to poverty.

If you give 5 businessmen who are already rich, $20,000,000 each, then that money will be invested in capital aka production goods

No! They would be investing in capital aka production goods that no one could afford because the rich folk took all the money.

We tried that experiment and saw what happened. No investment whatsoever. Instead we saw corporate stock buy backs, which jacked up the stock market, made the rich richer, and the middle class saw none of it.

Socialism but only for the rich?

@vivify said
This thread is specifically about trick-down economics. That's the belief that giving rich people higher tax breaks results in a better economy.

Having better principles or moralistic stances can lead to a better life. But giving rich people freebies never helps the economy.

where do jobs come from?

@Mott-The-Hoople said
where do jobs come from?

As I told Rajk, benefiting the rich can help the economy if specifically done to hire or aid workers. I'm not opposed to the idea as long as there's government accountability (like receipts and reports on how those funds were spent) as well consequences for not using grants, tax breaks, bailouts, etc., as intended.

But that wouldn't be trickle-down economics, that would be normal government operation.

Trickle-down is the belief that benefiting the rich, in and of itself, will lead to a better economy: just give them more money and trust they'll use it in a way that benefits everyone else. That's what doesn't work.

@Mott-The-Hoople said
question...where do you think jobs come from?

Depends. Primary producers like farmers create jobs because there's too much work that they can't do all by themselves. Resource mining requires people to man the machines. Manufacturing work. Factories supply jobs that must be filled for the industries to function optimally.

One thing for certain, jobs are necessary for industry to be productive. And a diverse range of skills are required for companies to be innovative and remain competitive. Jobs are not given out of the goodness of someone's heart. Jobs are a necessity for every company to succeed.

@kmax87 said
Depends. Primary producers like farmers create jobs because there's too much work that they can't do all by themselves. Resource mining requires people to man the machines. Manufacturing work. Factories supply jobs that must be filled for the industries to function optimally.

One thing for certain, jobs are necessary for industry to be productive. And a diverse range of sk ...[text shortened]... not given out of the goodness of someone's heart. Jobs are a necessity for every company to succeed.

so in short, jobs come from the exact people you are against.

If a farmer does well can go not pay his employees more?

If the same farmer does poorly do the employees chip in and help him out?

@Rajk999 said


Production is what drives prosperity.
Consumption is the road to poverty.

Without consumption there is no cause for any production. For sustainability, a balance between the two must be found.

Look what happened to the Soviets and their command economy. Plenty of production, but without reference to what the market wanted. While this guaranteed full employment it was a very inefficient system where money was poorly allocated and people queued up for bread.

@Mott-The-Hoople said
so in short, jobs come from the exact people you are against.

Jobs don't necessarily come from the rich. They can come from small or local businesses, non-profit organizations or even from the government.

I doubt anyone opposes funding such entities.

@Mott-The-Hoople said
so in short, jobs come from the exact people you are against.

If a farmer does well can go not pay his employees more?

If the same farmer does poorly do the employees chip in and help him out?

You assume too much. Germany embraces workers rights and workers share in the profits of their labour. Workers are also involved in corporate decisions. Workers are not seen as an unfortunate necessity. Happy workers are seen as fundamental to the health of companies and if a company needs to downsize due to an economic downturn, worker unions will cooperate with the company to downsize temporarily until the market picks up.

Germany operates this way because money and workers have an adult relationship. Whereas the US tends to have a schizophrenic relationship with it's workforce. Maybe it's just your history where every powerful capitalist from Rockefeller to Ford did everything in their power to smash and destroy any efforts by their workers to organize into Unions.

You should come to Australia and see what the Union movement has done for our society. Free education up to secondary level. Subsided tertiary education. Free healthcare. Etc etc....

And we are happily capitalist. Work hard, get paid, get ahead. But don't think for one minute you can treat me your worker as less than human. Half the problems in the US stem from workers not being paid their due.

@Mott-The-Hoople said
where do jobs come from?

https://www.factorfinders.com/blog/small-business-job-creation-vs-big/

According to the U.S. Small Business Administration (SBA) Office of Advocacy, small businesses have generated 64% of net new jobs over the past 15 years. The SBA considers companies with less than 500 employees to be “small businesses”. 99.7% of all businesses that have employees in the U.S. fall under that umbrella term.

However, a study by entrepreneurship research organization the Kauffman Foundation had different findings. They found that existing firms actually lost around 1,000,000 more jobs than they added every year from 1977 to 2005.

Answer: jobs come mostly from small businesses, not necessarily rich people.

@shavixmir said
The trickle down effect has been known not to work since the 60’s.

Why they keep repeating it is beyond me, why so many people still believe it, just boggles the mind.

It's like any big lie. Constantly repeat the mantra by glib smiling salesmen (looking at you Ronnie) and at some point it becomes an axiomatic truth that gullible people who have never questioned it are willing to defend the proposition of supporting the wealthy at their own expense. It's unbelievable!!

@kmax87 said
Without consumption there is no cause for any production. For sustainability, a balance between the two must be found.

Look what happened to the Soviets and their command economy. Plenty of production, but without reference to what the market wanted. While this guaranteed full employment it was a very inefficient system where money was poorly allocated and people queued up for bread.

Consumption and production work together. But if there is too much consumption there is inflation. Production must match consumption.

Too much production is better because prices come down, and standard of living rises.

Money in the wrong hands leads to inflation.
Money in the right hands lead to production.

@vivify said
Jobs don't necessarily come from the rich. They can come from small or local businesses, non-profit organizations or even from the government.

I doubt anyone opposes funding such entities.

so you come up with a very small percentage and think you have a point?

@kmax87 said
It's like any big lie. Constantly repeat the mantra by glib smiling salesmen (looking at you Ronnie) and at some point it becomes an axiomatic truth that gullible people who have never questioned it are willing to defend the proposition of supporting the wealthy at their own expense. It's unbelievable!!

what is unbelievable is your thinking you can tax your way to prosperity



your scenario fits blacks and democrats