Originally posted by sword4damoclesYou're probably right.
This map is post WWI and Pre-1940. Notice that Poland is not divided among the Germans and the Russians.
This is a map from the game "Diplomacy".
You can play Mediaeval Diplomacy and other such games online at www.lordsofconquest.com, although there's no WWW or WW2 version.
"The Brits were aided by several 'miracles' that are closely examined by Lord: Hitler's decision to stop his tanks from annihilating the escaping British (he was saving the tanks for France), 9 days of calm seas on the English Channel, and literally thousands of small private English boats that aided in the escape of some 338,000 troops - essentially the entire British Expeditionary Force and a sizeable force of French soldiers. Lord describes the Churchhill's efforts to keep the French happy as they were left alone on the Continent." -- Review of the book "Miracle at Dunkirk".
My numbers were off by 138,000 - more BEF troops
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Originally posted by no1marauderFrance declined to extend the Maginot Line all the way to the Channel because of cost, not Belgium.
There's a lot of inaccurate historical statements here. France declined to extend the Maginot Line all the way to the Channel because of cost, not Belgium. Belgian troops fought hard and Belgium only surrendered after her (and France's position) was hopeless. And Hitler certainly didn't deliberately allow the BEF to escape; he thought the Luftwaffe could troops and the ability and will to deploy them aggressively to destroy the enemy's forces.
Why do you think this? The little bit of internet searching I did after reading your post only confirmed the statement that the Line was not built across the Franco-Belgian border because of diplomatic reasons and because the forest there was thought to be impassible. Of course this doesn't make me an expert; I just want to know why you think that so I can be educated.
Originally posted by Bosse de NageThis is actually a Pre-WWI game, here is a link to a review by "The Wargamer"
You're probably right.
You can play Mediaeval Diplomacy and other such games online at www.lordsofconquest.com, although there's no WWW or WW2 version.
http://www.wargamer.com/reviews/diplomacy_firstimpressions/Default.asp
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Originally posted by sword4damoclesThat's nonsense, though it was something a few German generals claimed after the war. The fact is that the area around Dunkirk was ill-suited to armored operations being marshy and sandy. The spearheads of Guderian's armored column was simply not strong enough to overwhelm a position containing 400,000 well trained and armed troops in a short time. The British had already staged a small counterattack at Arras and mauled some German units including SS troops. The less mobile flank of the German army that had moved through Belgium in heavy fighting needed to be moved into position to assault the area. By the time they were ready, the Brits and 100,000 others were gone.
"And Hitler certainly didn't deliberately allow the BEF to escape; he thought the Luftwaffe could prevent any large evacuations until the Germans could reduce the Dunkirk bridgehead." -- I disagree with this statement.
How then does one account for the complete halt of the land forces of Germany and Hitler's Generals begging him to let then drive the BEF to escape via the channel so he could use it in further discussions with Churchill.
Why, pray tell, would Hitler "allow" the BEF to escape? Your explanation is ridiculous; one doesn't allow the enemy to maintain a quarter million troops to "use it in further discussions". What nonsense.
Originally posted by AThousandYoungFrom readings in military history. I'll find internet links if you wish.
[b]France declined to extend the Maginot Line all the way to the Channel because of cost, not Belgium.
Why do you think this? The little bit of internet searching I did after reading your post only confirmed the statement that the Line was not built across the Franco-Belgian border because of diplomatic reasons and because the forest there was ...[text shortened]... se this doesn't make me an expert; I just want to know why you think that so I can be educated.[/b]
Originally posted by sword4damoclesA mobile reserve can be concentrated on a wing quickly from a central position and can switch theaters quickly. Therefore greater force can be concentrated at one position on the extreme flank, since you know both that there are fortifications holding the territory elsewhere and that your mobile forces can redeploy quickly in case of the unexpected.
I don't understand exactly what you're saying.
France had a mobile reserve and they had about 200,000 plus English exipditionary troops in France when the invasion started. Remember, England declared war on Germany, not the other way around and England put troops in France to shore up her defences. Neither nation really expected Lightning Warfare ...[text shortened]... he channel. Around 200,000 British troops escaped certain devastation. Certain devastation.
Skirmishers would only be used to slow down the movement through the forest with snipers, mines, obstacles, counterintelligence, etc. The mobile reserve, which would include many tanks and planes, would be quite capable of smashing tanks if it was known exactly where they would show up, which the Line would help ensure. This assumes that France would have understood that the Nazis could get through the Ardennes Forest.
Originally posted by AThousandYoungJust quickly from wikipedia (which ain't my favorite source):
That would be nice. Thanks.
When Belgium abrogated the treaty in 1936 and declared neutrality, the Maginot Line was quickly extended along the Franco-Belgian border, but not to the standard of the rest of the Line. And as the water table in this region was high, there was the danger of underground passages getting flooded, which the designers of the line knew would be difficult and expensive to overcome.
The rationale before Belgium declared neutrality was more practical than diplomatic; the Belgians already had some strong fortifications on their border with Germany and if France and Belgium were both at war with Germany it would be expected that French forces would advance into Belgium to meet the German forces rather than wait hundreds of miles back in forts while their ally was overrun (sounds like KW in MD). One should also remember that by 1936, France was in the depths of the Great Depression and money was scarce. Apparently, Petain convinced the French government to spend an extra billion francs in 1935 partly on a "public works" rationale to upgrade the existing parts of the line. But the cost to extend the line fully from Lorraine to the Channel would have been prohibitive.
From the wikipedia article for the 1940 Battle of Arras:
The battle is historically credited with shaking the confidence of German High Command (OKW). Erwin Rommel is noted to have written a report stating an attack by hundreds of Allied tanks, which was likely a contributing factor to the halt of the German offensive for 24 hours. The main British force consisted of only 58 Matildas supported by a few lighter armoured vehicles. The delay by the OKW is one of the main reasons for the success of Operation Dynamo.
Operation Dynamo was the evacuation of Allied forces from Dunkirk.
Originally posted by AThousandYoungDid the French ever do anything right?
[b]...the Line achieved the specific task it was intended to do, rendering a direct assault against France's Eastern border impossible (the few Maginot forts which were directly attacked by German armoured troops held very well). It would be more truthful to state that the Line was sound, but France's strategic use of it was poor. As originally envisi ...[text shortened]... sible that the Line was not a bad idea, but instead that France failed to utilize it properly?
GV
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France assumed diplomacy would hold this position, and that was the biggest mistake I think.[/b]Biggest mistake Belgium ever made was allowing the French aristocracy into Belgium when they faced certain death during the French Revolution! These French (Waloons) have caused nothing but grief ever since!
GV