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  1. 25 Jan '18 19:20 / 1 edit
    _The Myth of the Rational Voter: Why Democracies Choose Bad Policies_
    by Bryan Caplan (Princeton University Press)

    "The greatest obstacle to sound economic policy is not entrenched special interests
    or rampant lobbying, but the popular misconceptions, irrational beliefs, and
    personal biases held by ordinary voters. This is economist Bryan Caplan's
    sobering assessment in this provocative and eye-opening book.
    Caplan argues that voters continually elect politicians who either share
    their biases or else pretend to, resulting in bad policies winning again
    and again by popular demand.

    Boldly calling into question our most basic assumptions about American politics,
    Caplan contends that democracy fails precisely because it does what voters want.
    Through an analysis of Americans' voting behavior and opinions on a range of
    economic issues, he makes the convincing case that noneconomists
    suffer from four prevailing biases: they underestimate the wisdom of the
    market mechanism, distrust foreigners, undervalue the benefits of conserving labor,
    and pessimistically believe the economy is going from bad to worse."
    --Amazon
  2. 25 Jan '18 19:29
    Originally posted by @duchess64
    _The Myth of the Rational Voter: Why Democracies Choose Bad Policies_
    by Bryan Caplan (Princeton University Press)

    "The greatest obstacle to sound economic policy is not entrenched special interests
    or rampant lobbying, but the popular misconceptions, irrational beliefs, and
    personal biases held by ordinary voters. This is economist Bryan Caplan's ...[text shortened]... serving labor,
    and pessimistically believe the economy is going from bad to worse."
    --Amazon
    Why are you posting a book about democracies and attaching it to the US...We are not a democracy.
  3. 25 Jan '18 21:15 / 1 edit
    Originally posted by @duchess64
    _The Myth of the Rational Voter: Why Democracies Choose Bad Policies_
    by Bryan Caplan (Princeton University Press)

    "The greatest obstacle to sound economic policy is not entrenched special interests
    or rampant lobbying, but the popular misconceptions, irrational beliefs, and
    personal biases held by ordinary voters. This is economist Bryan Caplan's ...[text shortened]... serving labor,
    and pessimistically believe the economy is going from bad to worse."
    --Amazon
    He makes the convincing case that non economists suffer from four prevailing biases: they underestimate the wisdom of the market mechanism, distrust foreigners, undervalue the benefits of conserving labor, and pessimistically believe the economy is going from bad to worse."



    Some economists have making these kinds of claims in one form or other for over 100 years, yet the economy is still reasonably sound.
  4. 25 Jan '18 23:36
    Originally posted by @duchess64
    _The Myth of the Rational Voter: Why Democracies Choose Bad Policies_
    by Bryan Caplan (Princeton University Press)

    "The greatest obstacle to sound economic policy is not entrenched special interests
    or rampant lobbying, but the popular misconceptions, irrational beliefs, and
    personal biases held by ordinary voters. This is economist Bryan Caplan's ...[text shortened]... serving labor,
    and pessimistically believe the economy is going from bad to worse."
    --Amazon
    Does he identify successful alternatives?
  5. 25 Jan '18 23:41
    Originally posted by @js357
    Does he identify successful alternatives?
    He claims to know improvements.

    "Caplan lays out several bold ways to make democratic government work better--for
    example, urging economic educators to focus on correcting popular misconceptions
    and recommending that democracies do less and let markets take up the slack."
    --Amazon

    At least on the surface, Bryan Caplan sounds like a believer in 'market fundamentalism',
    hoping that laissez-faire capitalism unleashed in the absence of government regulation
    will magically solve all problems.
  6. Subscriber no1marauder
    Humble and Kind
    26 Jan '18 02:18
    Originally posted by @duchess64
    He claims to know improvements.

    "Caplan lays out several bold ways to make democratic government work better--for
    example, urging economic educators to focus on correcting popular misconceptions
    and recommending that democracies do less and let markets take up the slack."
    --Amazon

    At least on the surface, Bryan Caplan sounds like a believer in ...[text shortened]... capitalism unleashed in the absence of government regulation
    will magically solve all problems.
    He's actually an anarcho-capitalist disciple of Murray Rothbard. People of that ideological persuasion have been moaning and complaining how stupid voters keep interfering with the flawless working of the "free market" for decades - Wajoma here is a follower of such crank ideas.
  7. Subscriber Wajoma
    Die Cheeseburger
    26 Jan '18 02:47 / 1 edit
    Originally posted by @no1marauder
    He's actually an anarcho-capitalist disciple of Murray Rothbard. People of that ideological persuasion have been moaning and complaining how stupid voters keep interfering with the flawless working of the "free market" for decades - Wajoma here is a follower of such crank ideas.
    Maybe yes maybe no, primarily I am an advocate for a free society that would allow you blokes to form collectives and operate by rules nominated and accepted voluntarily by the members.

    The right, the left it doesn't matter, whoever lost out the last election are whinging about how stupid and unqualified the voters are when their side loses.

    BTW can you find where I have used the word 'flawless' in conjunction with any economic, political or philosophical system. After a few people getting their knuckles rapped over their red herring 'utopian' we see a lot less of it, don't tell me you need another lesson here.
  8. Standard member shavixmir
    Guppy poo
    26 Jan '18 03:58 / 1 edit
    Well, I’ve never heard anyone but Ayn Rand call any human behaviour rational. So this rational voter thing sounds cuckoo to me.

    As for letting the free market dictate... yeah.... what is the free market? That’s people (who are also voters and not rational) gambling to make hordes of money over the backs of others.

    Rationality is: observing that a nurse is far more important than a bank manager.
    Irrationality is the bank manager being paid 10x the salary of a nurse.

    So anyone voting to sustain that system is voting irrationally (even a bank manager needs a nurse more than another bank manager).
    However, voting to correct that system would be rational.

    The writer of that books suggests all voters sustain irrationality. This is therefore a false claim.

    The writer suggests that leaving the system up to the market is better. It’s the market which has created the discrepency between what’s important and what’s paid most. So his solution and his claims are irrational. And false.
  9. Subscriber Wajoma
    Die Cheeseburger
    26 Jan '18 04:17 / 3 edits
    Originally posted by @shavixmir
    Well, I’ve never heard anyone but Ayn Rand call any human behaviour rational. So this rational voter thing sounds cuckoo to me.

    As for letting the free market dictate... yeah.... what is the free market? That’s people (who are also voters and not rational) gambling to make hordes of money over the backs of others.

    Rationality is: observing that a nu ...[text shortened]... what’s important and what’s paid most. So his solution and his claims are irrational. And false.
    The Shav: "As for letting the free market dictate... yeah.... what is the free market? That’s people (who are also voters and not rational) gambling to make hordes of money over the backs of others."

    It's also two people quite possibly bartering without currency, maybe for vegetables in the most humble dirt lot markets in the world, your dreams about the free market being some kind of Wall St wheeling dealing stocks and shares thing is a million miles from reality, they operate under numerous guvamint buratcracies and thousands of pages of regulation which shape the game, nowhere near a free market.
  10. Subscriber no1marauder
    Humble and Kind
    26 Jan '18 05:11
    Originally posted by @wajoma
    Maybe yes maybe no, primarily I am an advocate for a free society that would allow you blokes to form collectives and operate by rules nominated and accepted voluntarily by the members.

    The right, the left it doesn't matter, whoever lost out the last election are whinging about how stupid and unqualified the voters are when their side loses.

    BTW can ...[text shortened]... their red herring 'utopian' we see a lot less of it, don't tell me you need another lesson here.
    Maybe you could explain how this would work in practice.

    Person A says "I own 1 million acres of land and no one else is allowed to use it".

    Persons B-Z say that "according to socialist principals, you are not allowed to own that much land as it deprives others of the possibility of feeding themselves free of your domination".

    So how does a "free society" resolve such conflicting claims?
  11. Subscriber Wajoma
    Die Cheeseburger
    26 Jan '18 05:16 / 1 edit
    Originally posted by @no1marauder
    Maybe you could explain how this would work in practice.

    Person A says "I own 1 million acres of land and no one else is allowed to use it".

    Persons B-Z say that "according to socialist principals, you are not allowed to own that much land as it deprives others of the possibility of feeding themselves free of your domination".

    So how does a "free society" resolve such conflicting claims?
    Whatever land you own you hand it over to the 'cause'. Convince the guy with the million acres to join your cause.

    If it's as popular and right as you say it is you should have no problem convincing people to hand over their stuff to the collective, TV evangelists do it all the time.

    The collective has as much right to take land from the lone million acres guy as he does from them.
  12. Subscriber no1marauder
    Humble and Kind
    26 Jan '18 05:24 / 1 edit
    Originally posted by @wajoma
    Whatever land you own you hand it over to the 'cause'. Convince the guy with the million acres to join your cause.

    If it's as popular and right as you say it is you should have no problem convincing people to hand over their stuff to the collective, TV evangelists do it all the time.

    The collective has as much right to take land from the lone million acres guy as he does from them.
    You're dodging.

    By what right does Person A get to claim he owns 1 million acres? Why should anybody else take such a claim seriously?

    Answer that please.
  13. Subscriber Wajoma
    Die Cheeseburger
    26 Jan '18 05:27
    Originally posted by @no1marauder
    You're dodging.

    By what right does Guy A get to claim he owns 1 million acres?

    Answer that please.
    That needs to be examined case by case. Did he buy it? Did he inherit it? Did he take it forcefully?

    Surely you're not arguing for a complete abandonment of property rights, don't the collective want the land that they've amassed protected?
  14. Subscriber no1marauder
    Humble and Kind
    26 Jan '18 05:32
    Originally posted by @wajoma
    That needs to be examined case by case. Did he buy it? Did he inherit it? Did he take it forcefully?

    Surely you're not arguing for a complete abandonment of property rights, don't the collective want the land that they've amassed protected?
    No one started with owning any land. The concept of ownership of land is a creation of some men imposed on the great mass of the People by force.

    You might want to recheck the hundreds of posts where the difference between "private" and "personal" property was explained to you.
  15. Subscriber Wajoma
    Die Cheeseburger
    26 Jan '18 05:37
    Originally posted by @no1marauder
    No one started with owning any land. The concept of ownership of land is a creation of some men imposed on the great mass of the People by force.

    You might want to recheck the hundreds of posts where the difference between "private" and "personal" property was explained to you.
    If your system is right, and it results in a happy prosperous society it will grow and amass more collectively owned land. Who wants a 1/4th or 1/8th acre piece of dirt with a humble house on it when folk can just wander about sleeping and living where ever they like, you're going to have no problem convincing people it's the better way to go, and they will join your collective voluntarily, leaving a few nutcases stuck with their lot, you'll be able to point to them and say "That is not the way to live, let that be an example."