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Debates Forum

Debates Forum

  1. 04 Jun '11 15:32
    In a discussion with Kazz I was reminded of what my macro-economics teacher said to the class, taxes are not for raising money for the government, taxes are a way of managing an economy.

    If the economy is heating up, then you raise taxes to slow it down. If the economy needs money, then you lower taxes to increase the money supply.

    The government does not make money. The government simply controls how much money it sucks out of the economy.

    Of course this model only works under a conservative point of view. I suppose it is one of the defining factors between economic conservatives and liberals. There will always be a great need for the poor, but in a conservative model the poor's needs are met by creating full employment. The liberal model tries to meet the poor's needs through heavy taxation. If you always have heavy taxation, then you will always have the need to suck large amounts of money out of the economy, causing economic down turns.


    To sum it up:

    Liberal-> Taxes are a way of taking from the rich to give to the poor, the job market is a secondary concern.

    Conservative-> Taxes are a way of managing the economy, the job market is the primary concern.
  2. Standard member wittywonka
    Chocolate Expert
    04 Jun '11 15:36
    Originally posted by Eladar
    in a conservative model the poor's needs are met by creating full employment.
    Do you believe that an employee at your local restaurant can afford health care insurance that would pay for brain cancer treatment, without any tax revenue spent by the government?
  3. 04 Jun '11 15:46
    Originally posted by wittywonka
    Do you believe that an employee at your local restaurant can afford health care insurance that would pay for brain cancer treatment, without any tax revenue spent by the government?
    Sure they could, if they actually offered insurance, not a health plan that covers everything.

    The problem with health care is modern health insurance. Doctors and hospitals can charge whatever they like because insurance will pay for it. You have to get insurance because you can't afford what hospitals and doctors charge. Nice little circle where insurance companies are allowed to milk the majority of us so that doctors and hospitals can get rich.

    The problem isn't with Taxation. The problem is with a broken health care model.
  4. Subscriber AThousandYoung
    It's only business
    04 Jun '11 16:02 / 1 edit
    Originally posted by Eladar
    In a discussion with Kazz I was reminded of what my macro-economics teacher said to the class, taxes are not for raising money for the government, taxes are a way of managing an economy.

    If the economy is heating up, then you raise taxes to slow it down. If the economy needs money, then you lower taxes to increase the money supply.

    The government does Conservative-> Taxes are a way of managing the economy, the job market is the primary concern.
    Are you suggesting that it's part of the conservative mindset to use government taxation to manipulate the economy?! And that there will always be a "great need for the poor"?!
  5. 04 Jun '11 16:07
    Taxes are a means for people to purchase collective goods.
  6. 04 Jun '11 16:29
    Originally posted by AThousandYoung
    Are you suggesting that it's part of the conservative mindset to use government taxation to manipulate the economy?! And that there will always be a "great need for the poor"?!
    I suppose the wording was weird. What I meant is that we will always have the poor and they will always have great needs.

    Yes, I'm saying that conservatives view taxation as a tool to manipulate the economy.
  7. 04 Jun '11 16:30
    Originally posted by KazetNagorra
    Taxes are a means for people to purchase collective goods.
    You can always go into debt to purchase collective goods. We see that in every country.
  8. Subscriber AThousandYoung
    It's only business
    04 Jun '11 17:02
    Originally posted by Eladar
    I suppose the wording was weird. What I meant is that we will always have the poor and they will always have great needs.

    Yes, I'm saying that conservatives view taxation as a tool to manipulate the economy.
    I though conservatives were in favor of government staying out of the free market.
  9. 04 Jun '11 17:09
    Originally posted by Eladar
    You can always go into debt to purchase collective goods. We see that in every country.
    Every country has a public debt?
  10. 04 Jun '11 17:28
    Originally posted by Eladar
    In a discussion with Kazz I was reminded of what my macro-economics teacher said to the class, taxes are not for raising money for the government, taxes are a way of managing an economy.

    If the economy is heating up, then you raise taxes to slow it down. If the economy needs money, then you lower taxes to increase the money supply.

    The government does ...[text shortened]... Conservative-> Taxes are a way of managing the economy, the job market is the primary concern.
    Your economics teacher was flat out wrong. Not that taxes aren't used in that manner, but that is as it ought to be. He certainly wasn't of the Austrian school.

    Fundamentally taxes ought to fund the government, and ought to be minimal to keep the government small and less powerful. That's the intent of America's Constitution.

    The roll of taxes as a stimulant or drag on an economy is arguable depending on one's economic roots.

    Increasing taxation, and combining that with the invisible tax of inflation, made possible by national banks such as the Federal Reserve, supports military expansionism as well as the welfare state, and fascist crony capitalism. If liberals and conservatives were each true to their spoken words, both would be for lower taxes and smaller government. But both seek more power, and power comes by taking money from those who earn it.
  11. 04 Jun '11 17:32
    Originally posted by wittywonka
    Do you believe that an employee at your local restaurant can afford health care insurance that would pay for brain cancer treatment, without any tax revenue spent by the government?
    I don't believe that minimum wage or sub minimum wage employees can afford most of the desirable things in life. That is the motivation for them to improve themselves. If government supplies all the wants and desires, the what is the incentive to improve?

    Bear in mind that wants, and needs are unlimited, but resources are not. Some manner of rationing happens regardless of the system employed in distribution of services.
  12. 04 Jun '11 17:34
    Originally posted by KazetNagorra
    Taxes are a means for people to purchase collective goods.
    I think that this is the primary purpose and best justification for taxes. We might debate what is the collective good and what level we want to guarantee for everyone.
  13. 04 Jun '11 17:38
    Originally posted by KazetNagorra
    Taxes are a means for people to purchase collective goods.
    "Taxes are a means for people to purchase collective goods."

    Who holds title to those "collective goods"?

    Clearly, a government needs some resources. Minimally, they need quarters to hold meetings, a means of publishing their legislative efforts, etc. As long as those collective goods serve all the people, the general welfare, taxation is acceptable. When taxation takes from one man, or group of men to give to another, it is no longer collective goods, except in the Marxist philosophy.
  14. 04 Jun '11 17:40
    Originally posted by KazetNagorra
    Every country has a public debt?
    Usually all inclusive "everys" have some exceptions. I do think most nations today spend more than their tax revenues.
  15. Standard member bill718
    Enigma
    04 Jun '11 17:45 / 1 edit
    Originally posted by Eladar
    In a discussion with Kazz I was reminded of what my macro-economics teacher said to the class, taxes are not for raising money for the government, taxes are a way of managing an economy.

    If the economy is heating up, then you raise taxes to slow it down. If the economy needs money, then you lower taxes to increase the money supply.

    The government does Conservative-> Taxes are a way of managing the economy, the job market is the primary concern.
    There is something your macro economics teacher did not discuss. TAX LOOPHOLES. The rich get lots of them, the poor get very few. Conservatives whine and whail constantly about how high the tax rates are for the well to do, what they don't talk about is the fact that the well off rarely pay these tax rates, in fact in many cases the rich pay less tax than poor people despite making far more income. So.....If your going to tell a story about taxes, tell the WHOLE story...not just the parts of it you want people to hear.

    Oh...and by the way, perhaps you could explain why the economy was so much better during the Clinton years, despite higher tax rates than they are now??? I wonder what your macro economics teacher would say about that?