The Vatican and paedophelia

Originally posted by Palynka
By negating their homosexual impulses when they take the vow of celibacy. Going into the closet is not unheard of, this is just another outlet which some gay people may prefer instead of trying to live a heterosexual life.

Sorry, but the stigma is ever present in the Catholic Church. Homosexuals are openly referred to as a disease, an abomination, and other such niceties.
A much better way to avoid the stigma is to get married and have children. Sh76's option b)

Originally posted by adam warlock
Sorry, but the stigma is ever present in the Catholic Church. Homosexuals are openly referred to as a disease, an abomination, and other such niceties.
A much better way to avoid the stigma is to get married and have children. Sh76's option b)

Well... I think you might be surprised.

Doesn't seem to be very well documented, but here's a start:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homosexuality_and_Roman_Catholic_priests#Estimating_the_number_of_homosexual_priests

I also find that in practice most priests are not half as hard-line as you make them sound.

Originally posted by Palynka
Well... I think you might be surprised.

Doesn't seem to be very well documented, but here's a start:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homosexuality_and_Roman_Catholic_priests#Estimating_the_number_of_homosexual_priests

Surprised indeed!

But can't it just be that these homosexual priests, just like the heterosexual priests, really believe in God and serving him?

Why do we have to assume (or conclude) that they enroll in the Catholic Church to avoid any outside stigma?

From your link:

With regard to the United States, in 2002 the Vatican ordered an "apostolic visitation", an examination of American seminaries directed from the Vatican. The visitation began in 2005, and the final report of that effort was issued in 2008. The report discusses "difficulties in the areas of morality", remarking that "Usually, but not exclusively, this meant homosexual behavior". The report describes steps taken to deal with the problem, including correcting a "laxity of discipline".

Homosexuality is described as being the usual cause of difficulties in the area of morality and as a problem to be dealt with. I'd call this a stigma.

"I also find that in practice most priests are not half as hard-line as you make them sound."
When I say the catholic church I don't mean to imply all the priests of course, only the people that are representative of the Catholic Church. Here in Portugal you had a very good example recently of a representative of the Catholic Church that referred to homosexuals as being sick and even bragged of having cured one in the past. Of course I'm aware that there are catholics that don't hold on to that view, including priests, but I'm just talking about the louder voices.

For instance when I say USA I'm not talking about the whole of the country, but only to the actions taken by the government.
When I say military I'm not talking about all of the soldiers, but to the louder voices in that institution. Etc, etc, etc...

Originally posted by adam warlock
How are they avoiding the stigma of being gay by moving to a society that openly vilifies homosexuality?

Because they no longer have to engage in heterosexual activity in order to avoid suspicion that they are gay.

Originally posted by sh76
Because they no longer have to engage in heterosexual activity in order to avoid suspicion that they are gay.

Would you rape small girls just for being constantly in the middle of them? Do you think that most heterosexual males would rape small girls just for being in the middle of them?
Why don't these "gay" priests have sex between them and instead rape children repeatedly?

Originally posted by Palynka
But if you agree it's not germane to the issue then the link between homosexuality and priest pedophilia is severed. Isn't that what adam is arguing for?

Perhaps. I don't have any idea what Adam is arguing for.

I saw the OP. I commented on the OP.

Adam expressed incredulity regarding my comments.

I defended my comments.

Simple as that.

Is there a "link between homosexuality and priest pedophilia"? Well, gee. I don't know for sure. Since the controversies seem primarily to involve boys (someone mentioned it's only 80% earlier. I thought it was higher, but even 80% is a fairly large number), it would stand to reason that the proportion of molester Priests who are gay is higher than the percentage of people in the general population that are gay.

Now, I understand that being gay is NOT the same thing as having an urge to molest boys. But it stand to reason that there is SOME correlation; that gay molesters are more likely to molest boys than are straight molesters. I can't prove this correlation, but it seems fairly obvious to me that if 80% of the victims are boys that a disproportionately high number of molesters are gay.

Originally posted by adam warlock
Would you rape small girls just for being constantly in the middle of them? Do you think that most heterosexual males would rape small girls just for being in the middle of them?
Why don't these "gay" priests have sex between them and instead rape children repeatedly?

No

No

I don't know. Maybe they do; at least as much as straight Priests lapse and have unauthorized sex with women. Why would we hear about it if they do? It's not a crime and there's no inherent reason it would come out.

Edit: Please let me reiterate that I never said and never meant that a gay adult is any more likely to molest children than is a straight adult. That there is a CORRELATION does NOT imply that there is a CAUSAL relationship.

Originally posted by sh76
No

No

I don't know. Maybe they do; at least as much as straight Priests lapse and have unauthorized sex with women. Why would we hear about it if they do? It's not a crime and there's no inherent reason it would come out.

Then why do you think that just for being gays there is a relevant likelihood of them raping young boys?
What makes homosexuals priests more prone to raping young boys than having sex between them?

If you think that for raping boys they are homosexual you're wrong. If you think that if by being homosexual that makes them more likely to rape young boys you're also wrong.

Edit: just noticed your edit. But you're confusing the following terms, homosexuality, child molester and pedophile.

Originally posted by adam warlock
Surprised indeed!

But can't it just be that these homosexual priests, just like the heterosexual priests, really believe in God and serving him?

Why do we have to assume (or conclude) that they enroll in the Catholic Church to avoid any outside stigma?

From your link:

[quote]With regard to the United States, in 2002 the Vatican ordered an "a f the soldiers, but to the louder voices in that institution. Etc, etc, etc...

The empty cage rattles the most. I absolutely agree with you on your comment for that quote. However, I think a normal priest can live their day-to-day without feeling the bile that seems to fill higher ranks too much.

I'm sure they believe in God, that's not the point. Many people believe in God and do not feel the need to become priests. The point is that if they have an extra incentive compared to heterosexuals we might expect a higher percentage. Same goes for pedophiles.

sh76:
http://psychology.ucdavis.edu/rainbow/HTML/facts_molestation.html

The link quotes:
The research to date all points to there being no significant relationship between a homosexual lifestyle and child molestation. There appears to be practically no reportage of sexual molestation of girls by lesbian adults, and the adult male who sexually molests young boys is not likely to be homosexual (Groth & Gary, 1982, p. 147).

Originally posted by adam warlock
Then why do you think that just for being gays there is a relevant likelihood of them raping young boys?
What makes homosexuals priests more prone to raping young boys than having sex between them?

If you think that for raping boys they are homosexual you're wrong. If you think that if by being homosexual that makes them more likely to rape young bo ...[text shortened]... edit. But you're confusing the following terms, homosexuality, child molester and pedophile.

Okay, let use some numbers here.

Let's make the following assumptions. I'm sure all of these are overestimates, but in there interest of remaining nice and metric, humor me.

Let's assume:

- 10% of men are gay

- 10% of gay men are pedophiles; or 1% of the population

- 10% of straight men are pedophiles; or 9% of the population

- Gay adult pedophiles are likely to molest boys

- Straight adult pedophiles are likely to molest girls

Based on that, one would expect that about 90% of the child molestation cases would involve girls.

In fact, the vest majority of child molestation cases by Priests involve boys.

Ergo, it stands to reason that molestor Priests are disproportionately gay for whatever reason.

OF course, it may be that the 2 factors are completely independent and that the same basic reasons that draw gays to the Priesthood also draw pedophiles to the Priesthood.

Originally posted by Palynka
sh76:
http://psychology.ucdavis.edu/rainbow/HTML/facts_molestation.html

The link quotes:
The research to date all points to there being no significant relationship between a homosexual lifestyle and child molestation. There appears to be practically no reportage of sexual molestation of girls by lesbian adults, and [b]the adult male who sexually molests young boys is not likely to be homosexual (Groth & Gary, 1982, p. 147). [/b]

Interesting.

Quite counter-intuitive. But then again, I guess these things are not based on logic.

Originally posted by Sartor Resartus
A Vatican spokesman has denied the charge that paedophelia is linked to celibacy in the Catholic priesthood but rather to homosexuality. This has raised a predictable outcry from the 'gay' camp, but as far as the evidence goes only boys have been abused by priests so it does appear that the charge sticks despite upsetting the 'gay' and PC lobby.

Well, its obvious that pedophilia isn't a result of celibacy, if that were the case all pedophiles would have been celibate, and yet that isn't the case.

I don't think "only boys" have been abused, but yes, the great majority of cases were of homosexual nature.

Originally posted by sh76
Okay, let use some numbers here.

Let's make the following assumptions. I'm sure all of these are overestimates, but in there interest of remaining nice and metric, humor me.

Let's assume:

- 10% of men are gay

- 10% of gay men are pedophiles; or 1% of the population

- 10% of straight men are pedophiles; or 9% of the population

- Gay adult pedop ...[text shortened]... e same basic reasons that draw gays to the Priesthood also draw pedophiles to the Priesthood.

Saying that someone is gay and pedophile is wrong. Saying that someone is straight and pedophile is also wrong (not quite but mostly).

Child molesters aren't to be confused with pedophiles. Not all child molesters are pedophile and not all pedophile are child molesters.

Some straight men are child molesters, and they can abuse boys or girls.
Some gay men are child molesters, and they can abuse boys or girls.

Your argument falls because you're confusing all of these terms.

I certainly agree that not all pedophiles are child molesters; but why would a non-pedophile molest a child?

Originally posted by sh76
I certainly agree that not all pedophiles are child molesters; but why would a non-pedophile molest a child?

Beats me.
Most of the time the reason that they give (when caught) is being angry at something and taking it out on a child.
I guess is similar to inmates rape in prison. They aren't necessarily gay men or women and yet they incur in that kind of behaviour.

I'm posting this again because I guess you haven't read it the first time I did (even if you don't consult the link just check out the bits I provide and pay attention to the parts that are in bold):

http://psychology.ucdavis.edu/rainbow/html/facts_molestation.html

Pedophilia and child molestation are used in different ways, even by professionals. Pedophilia usually refers to an adult psychological disorder characterized by a preference for prepubescent children as sexual partners; this preference may or may not be acted upon.

child molestation and child sexual abuse are used to describe actual sexual contact between an adult and someone who has not reached the legal age of consent.

Although the terms are not always applied consistently, it is useful to distinguish between pedophiles/hebephiles and child molesters/abusers. Pedophilia and hebephilia are diagnostic labels that refer to psychological attractions. Not all pedophiles and hebephiles actually molest children; an adult can be attracted to children or adolescents without ever actually engaging in sexual contact with them.

Child molestation and child sexual abuse refer to actions, and don't imply a particular psychological makeup or motive on the part of the perpetrator. Not all incidents of child sexual abuse are perpetrated by pedophiles or hebephiles; in some cases, the perpetrator has other motives for his or her actions and does not manifest an ongoing pattern of sexual attraction to children.

Another problem related to terminology arises because sexual abuse of male children by adult men2 is often referred to as "homosexual molestation." The adjective "homosexual" (or "heterosexual" when a man abuses a female child) refers to the victim's gender in relation to that of the perpetrator. Unfortunately, people sometimes mistakenly interpret it as referring to the perpetrator's sexual orientation.

The distinction between a victim's gender and a perpetrator's sexual orientation is important because many child molesters don't really have an adult sexual orientation. They have never developed the capacity for mature sexual relationships with other adults, either men or women. Instead, their sexual attractions focus on children – boys, girls, or children of both sexes.

Other researchers have taken different approaches, but have similarly failed to find a connection between homosexuality and child molestation. Dr. Carole Jenny and her colleagues reviewed 352 medical charts, representing all of the sexually abused children seen in the emergency room or child abuse clinic of a Denver children's hospital during a one-year period (from July 1, 1991 to June 30, 1992). The molester was a gay or lesbian adult in fewer than 1% in which an adult molester could be identified – only 2 of the 269 cases (Jenny et al., 1994).