@wildgrass saidI realize it would ruin a perfectly good talking points to tell the truth on this matter, but you're being positively Trumpian at this stage.
You'll be happy to know I did this maths. It could show up on a 4th grade exam some day.
The average SNAP recipient gets $44/week. How long until they get enough money in free handouts from the government to match the $960,000 that Tom Brady got in one lump sum?
419.6 years.
Repeat after me: Tom Brady did not receive PPP funds, a company Tom Brady had some interest in did to meet its payroll during the COVID economic crises.
@wildgrass saidWhich didn't happen.
Taxes are an important part of a capitalist state. But the government paying companies to hire workers, and then having those companies pocket the majority of the money to buy toys for their own families, that should not be part of capitalist state.
Get it straight.
@no1marauder saidYet another distinction without a difference.
The claim is that that money would have been paid to employees anyway, not that PPP funds weren't used for payroll. That's what your study says.
Can you explain why you think the 77% of PPP did NOT go to owners and corporate stakeholders, as this article concluded? What do you think the real number is? What do you think a reasonable number would be?
For a program like this, of course there will be grift and waste, but even 5% of this money works out to a massive fortune. To flippantly dismiss a number like 77% waste as just a part of how the government does business is insane.
A job with a salary of $58k cost the government $258k to "save" through this program. These seem like numbers that should be universally declared unacceptable to taxpayers.
@no1marauder saidYes I am sure your being a forum techie have nailed it about # of checks. What was un true was your saying that I, or any of the 3 guys I just played golf with, got those checks. Please recant.
"Totally untrue"? Those are government figures on how many payments were made.
You have zero credibility. Unless you're a very young teenager (in which case your parents received the payment) or very wealthy (impossible), you got a COVID economic stimulus payment like every other American adult.
What a joke. I asked them, one of them even said he was not familiar with any such checks. I knew about it because of this forum. I guess we were all too busy to be even thinking about checks coming to us that were not something that we had earned. We cannot imagine.
You need another subject. And by the way, I am not very wealthy.
@no1marauder saidWhat talking points? I'm quoting the research. You're the one sounding like Trump.
I realize it would ruin a perfectly good talking points to tell the truth on this matter, but you're being positively Trumpian at this stage.
Repeat after me: Tom Brady did not receive PPP funds, a company Tom Brady had some interest in did to meet its payroll during the COVID economic crises.
Trump's family and associates received at least $3.5 million from the PPP, possibly much more. But I'm sure you'd write something like "well, actually, it wasn't Jared Kushner who got the money, the money went to a bank account tied to a company that he owns and then he used it to gas up his G5 private jet. It doesn't mean that Jared directly benefited from the money."
Gawd. Tortured logic.
@AverageJoe1 saidAsk Marauder what should be done about the woman who broke several laws when aiming her car at an ice agent. Pretend you are asking him. He and I do not communicate. Last time I asked him to pay my daughter’s tuition, and he would not even respond, even tho it was rhetorical. Of course he wouldn’t.
While I have you, could you come in on this. When I was in college, in the 60s, if I had tried to run over an ice agent, and then got out of the car and flipped him off, I would have put in jail and probably have been punished. The reason, get ready for this, is I would have broken the law. Ask any lawyer that you know, ….that would be called breaking the law, and the bo ...[text shortened]... ve any effect on your decision. Given that she is a lunatic that you support .. Thank you very much.
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@wildgrass saidI think the job number saved is low; I've seen other studies suggesting up to 18 million jobs might have been saved.
Yet another distinction without a difference.
Can you explain why you think the 77% of PPP did NOT go to owners and corporate stakeholders, as this article concluded? What do you think the real number is? What do you think a reasonable number would be?
For a program like this, of course there will be grift and waste, but even 5% of this money works out to a massive fo ...[text shortened]... this program. These seem like numbers that should be universally declared unacceptable to taxpayers.
I think the program was meant to keep small businesses open and it did that. Therefore, even if more money flowed to small business owners than originally anticipated when the program was conceived in the middle of an unprecedented economic crisis, I don't consider that "waste".
Your claims that it was some big slush fund created to feed the wealthy is ignorant hogwash.
Two facts:
Small businesses create a majority of jobs in the US.
At the start of COVID, the unemployment rate jumped from around 4% to almost 15% in a month.
PPP was an emergency program meant to address and prevent a possible economic depression in the immediate future. Evaluations of it should be based on what was known when it was enacted. Since there was, and still isn't, any way to know in advance which specific firms will have layoffs or even close entirely, I'm not sure how useful the Autor study is.
@no1marauder saidWe gotta shift from what the program was meant to do to what it actually did. The only reference I could find for your 18 million number was Trump's Department of Treasury estimate in 2020. Everything else is between 1-3 million, with the most generous estimate at 3.6 million. These numbers also seem to shift lower at later time points post-COVID suggesting that the jobs saved were really just delayed firings. You seem to be cherry picking numbers to justify your support.
I think the job number saved is low; I've seen other studies suggesting up to 18 million jobs might have been saved.
I think the program was meant to keep small businesses open and it did that. Therefore, even if more money flowed to small business owners than originally anticipated when the program was conceived in the middle of an unprecedented economic crisis, I don ...[text shortened]... te".
Your claims that it was some big slush fund created to feed the wealthy is ignorant hogwash.
Meanwhile there's a ton of negative numbers. Another number we haven't discussed: Even among companies that received PPP loans, 46% still reduced payroll.
@no1marauder saidAgain, saying that some of the money did some good is not a point of contention here. Here's what AI says to give some context to your facts:
Two facts:
Small businesses create a majority of jobs in the US.
At the start of COVID, the unemployment rate jumped from around 4% to almost 15% in a month.
PPP was an emergency program meant to address and prevent a possible economic depression in the immediate future. Evaluations of it should be based on what was known when it was enacted. Since there was, a ...[text shortened]... specific firms will have layoffs or even close entirely, I'm not sure how useful the Autor study is.
- A lot of the money didn’t end up where it was most needed. According to research, only 23-34% of PPP dollars “went directly to workers who would otherwise have lost jobs.”
- Much of the rest went to business owners, their creditors, suppliers — which doesn’t necessarily help low-wage workers.
- When you look at dollar volume, only about 28% of the money went into those small business loans
- A report argued it was “highly regressive,” with about 75% of PPP funds accruing to the top 20% of households.
I can provide references if needed.
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@AverageJoe1 said===I would be scared to cash it as it would put me on some list that would fall into your hands one day I would not think about cashing it===
I will swear on my Granny’s life that I never have received any such check. I would not even know what to do with it, and frankly, I would be scared to cash it as it would put me on some list that would fall into your hands one day I would not think about cashing it.
So, as is the way of liberals on the forum, you are stating something that people like Susie will put ...[text shortened]... lawbreakers, domestic.. Are you aware that this is constitutional and that you take exception to it?
So you never cash stimulus checks? The government seems to send them out every time the economy softens... and you just always ignore them or rip them up? Because "that's how they get ya?" or some such logic?
Fascinating.
My offer to accept your future stimulus checks and thus divert the government's attention from you onto me, still stands.
@wildgrass saidThose are all numbers from the same study you already referenced.
Again, saying that some of the money did some good is not a point of contention here. Here's what AI says to give some context to your facts:- A lot of the money didn’t end up where it was most needed. According to research, only 23-34% of PPP dollars “went directly to workers who would otherwise have lost jobs.”
- Much of the rest went to business owners, th ...[text shortened]... 75% of PPP funds accruing to the top 20% of households.
I can provide references if needed.
@wildgrass said7.5 million jobs saved according to this study from the Federal Reserve Bank of Boston.https://www.bostonfed.org/publications/research-department-working-paper/2021/bank-incentives-and-the-effect-of-the-paycheck-protection-program.aspx
We gotta shift from what the program was meant to do to what it actually did. The only reference I could find for your 18 million number was Trump's Department of Treasury estimate in 2020. Everything else is between 1-3 million, with the most generous estimate at 3.6 million. These numbers also seem to shift lower at later time points post-COVID suggesting that the jobs sa ...[text shortened]... umber we haven't discussed: Even among companies that received PPP loans, 46% still reduced payroll.
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@no1marauder saidOk thanks! Big difference in the cost per job between these two studies ($258k vs $70k). I read the methods in your report but could not understand their reasoning. It seemed convoluted to me that they use data from the county the bank that received the "loans" were located, whether or not the banks chose to take the "loans" or not, and the relative unemployment numbers in the county where the bank was located, but did not appear to consider what the employers who received the "loans" did with the money or the employment status of their employees. So I guess the reasoning is that if the county containing the banks that received the most money had lower unemployment, that means the PPP was working better?
7.5 million jobs saved according to this study from the Federal Reserve Bank of Boston.https://www.bostonfed.org/publications/research-department-working-paper/2021/bank-incentives-and-the-effect-of-the-paycheck-protection-program.aspx
Maybe you can explain it? Why do you prefer this analysis over the other one? Also, why did you say 18 million but then this one only says 7.5 million?
In the other study, the methods were straightforward and well-controlled. They focused on who actually received the money vs. who did not receive the money, and then compared the relative behaviors of hiring or firing their employees. This seems like the most logical approach, so I trust that analysis more than the lender-focused study you just shared.
@sh76 saidFascinating to you, of course. Of a parasitic nature, it is human nature for you to get free money, nothing fascinating about that amongst your ilk, I take it..
===I would be scared to cash it as it would put me on some list that would fall into your hands one day I would not think about cashing it===
So you never cash stimulus checks? The government seems to send them out every time the economy softens... and you just always ignore them or rip them up? Because "that's how they get ya?" or some such logic?
Fascinating.
My offe ...[text shortened]... ur future stimulus checks and thus divert the government's attention from you onto me, still stands.
I have never received what you casually refer to as simulus checks. brrrrrrrr.
Surely that must make you feel a bit inadequate? Do your family know that you are on the dole?
A self reliant person needs no stimulation except for that of success. Try it.
I, and my friends I was with this morning, have no idea what you are taking about.