We are are the brink of another World War, now escalated by Russia threatening to use nukes if the West continues aiding Ukraine, just two days ago:
https://www.cbsnews.com/news/ukraine-news-russia-warns-nuclear-world-war-if-west-keeps-sending-weapons/
As this is going on, just like in WWII, Uighur Muslims are being placed into internment camps, being abused, murdered and tortured:
https://www.cnn.com/2021/06/08/middleeast/uyghur-arab-muslim-china-disappearances-cmd-intl/index.html
This is on top of genocide, such as when China was reported using forced sterilization on Uighurs.
Here's what the gist:
Uighur Muslims are an minority but dominate the Xinjiang region of China. This is a historically Turkic region which some Uighurs believe still rightfully should be; there have been calls for independence of the Xinjiang region from China. This alarms China, for obvious reasons.
China has accused Uighurs of being "terrorists" and used that as an excuse to put those Muslims into forced labor camps, which China calls "reeducation" camps.
While all of this is going, many other nations around the world are extraditing Uighurs back to China:
https://www.nbcnews.com/news/world/chinese-government-hunting-uyghurs-world-help-surprising-countries-rcna24987
The nations extraditing Uighurs back to China include the UAE, Egypt and Turkey, which have signed deals to aide China with capturing Uighurs. One of the reasons China wants them extradited to China is because some of them have openly criticized China's treatment of Uighurs; however....many Uighurs have been extradited back to China even without any charges against them.
One of the organizations helping China capture Uighurs? Interpole:
https://thehill.com/opinion/international/565482-as-china-targets-uyghurs-worldwide-democracies-must-prevent-interpol/
One more thing to consider: while Uighurs are the most persecuted Muslims in China, there are multiple groups China being persecuted. China has destroyed or removed multiple mosques throughout China, and even gone so far as to limit beards and veils:
https://www.dw.com/en/china-limits-beards-veils-in-muslim-region/a-38214749
There are many more details I left out for the sake of brevity, but I the harassment against Uighurs has been worldwide, including in the U.S. and Europe. See this link for more details:
https://www.nbcnews.com/news/world/chinese-government-hunting-uyghurs-world-help-surprising-countries-rcna24987
No.
What China is doing to the Uyghurs is certainly a mass atrocity, but Holocaust as that term connotes something comparable to what happened to the European Jews? No.
The most brutal allegations as far as I can tell from your sources is that the Chinese have deported as many as 2 million people to "concentration camps" — places where inmates are subjected to intense indoctrination intended to de-Islamize them, forced to learn Mandarin, and instructed in Communist Party propaganda."
Even assuming that's the plain fact, that's bad, but it's not the same as killing them.
Find at least an allegation that all 2 million of them are being systematically taken out into the forest and shot and then you can start throwing around the term Holocaust.
@sh76 saidYour assertion, then, is that you can only use the term holocaust when German industrial efficiency is part of the equation?
No.
What China is doing to the Uyghurs is certainly a mass atrocity, but Holocaust as that term connotes something comparable to what happened to the European Jews? No.
The most brutal allegations as far as I can tell from your sources is that the Chinese have deported as many as 2 million people to "concentration camps" — places where inmates are subjected to intense indo ...[text shortened]... ically taken out into the forest and shot and then you can start throwing around the term Holocaust.
Ethnic cleansing, genocide… chips / crisps as far as I’m concerned. 2 million people in concentration camps… I dunno… no matter how you figure this, it ain’t bloody good.
@shavixmir saidThat's an overstatement of my position.
Your assertion, then, is that you can only use the term holocaust when German industrial efficiency is part of the equation?
The use of the phrase "a second Holocaust" should be limited to situations comparable to what is commonly referred to as the first "Holocaust."
That's all I said.
@shavixmir saidWell if you are going to refer to it as “the second Holocaust” then you are kind of tying it to the Nazis targeting the Ashkenazi.
Your assertion, then, is that you can only use the term holocaust when German industrial efficiency is part of the equation?
Ethnic cleansing, genocide… chips / crisps as far as I’m concerned. 2 million people in concentration camps… I dunno… no matter how you figure this, it ain’t bloody good.
@athousandyoung saidIsn’t it?
Well if you are going to refer to it as “the second Holocaust” then you are kind of tying it to the Nazis targeting the Ashkenazi.
I mean, besides the final solution, it’s pretty bloody similar.
@shavixmir saidYeah, I can see how you might think that is a minor thing, but it’s kind of significant.
Isn’t it?
I mean, besides the final solution, it’s pretty bloody similar.
Now if we find evidence of a Unit 731 like atmosphere to these Chinese camps then I’ll agree with you but what these really are are forced assimilation camps. Not quite the same thing. More like the “Stolen Generations” of Australia.
@sh76 saidIs your issue that because the (reported) numbers are far less, that this isn't comparable to the Holocaust?
No.
What China is doing to the Uyghurs is certainly a mass atrocity, but Holocaust as that term connotes something comparable to what happened to the European Jews? No.
The most brutal allegations as far as I can tell from your sources is that the Chinese have deported as many as 2 million people to "concentration camps" — places where inmates are subjected to intense indo ...[text shortened]... ically taken out into the forest and shot and then you can start throwing around the term Holocaust.
You're correct that scale doesn't (yet) match WWII levels. Keep in mind that the Holocaust didn't happen over night; Hitler came to power around 1934; it wasn't until 1940 that the Holocaust ramped up. Prior to that, Nazi concentration camps existed as early as 1933 and similar roundups of Jews took place before the full scale atrocities began in the 40's.
So while the *scale* of what's happening to the Uighurs are different, the methods of oppression are uncomfortably similar: raids on mosques, internet camps, forced labor, forced sterilization...the circumstances are all there:
https://www.smithsonianmag.com/history/is-china-committing-genocide-against-the-uyghurs-180979490/
Don't turn this into a contest of who was oppressed more. The major issue is that the groundwork for a second Holocaust is there; it's more important to recognize this is happening and put a stop to it.
@shavixmir saidThe "final solution" involved searching for Jews throughout Europe and killing them; here, Uighurs are being extradited to China.
besides the final solution, it’s pretty bloody similar.
While I wouldn't dare equate this to the brutality of what the Jews went through, the concept is still the same: gather Uighurs throughout the world and let the Chinese deal with them how they wish.
@vivify said===Is your issue that because the (reported) numbers are far less, that this isn't comparable to the Holocaust?===
Is your issue that because the (reported) numbers are far less, that this isn't comparable to the Holocaust?
You're correct that scale doesn't (yet) match WWII levels. Keep in mind that the Holocaust didn't happen over night; Hitler came to power around 1934; it wasn't until 1940 that the Holocaust ramped up. Prior to that, Nazi concentration camps existed as early as 1 ...[text shortened]... second Holocaust is there; it's more important to recognize this is happening and put a stop to it.
No. It's not a numbers issue per se. Putting people into re-education camps to train them to abandon their heritage and integrate into your society is really, really BAD. But it's NOT remotely the same thing as putting them in gas chambers. Not even the same conversation.
@shavixmir saidPretty darn big "besides."
Isn’t it?
I mean, besides the final solution, it’s pretty bloody similar.
@sh76 saidIf that was the only crime against the Uighurs, do you think I would've started this thread? I've clearly indicated, with links, that torture and murder have been reported regarding these camps, as well as all manner of other types of human rights abuses.
===Is your issue that because the (reported) numbers are far less, that this isn't comparable to the Holocaust?===
No. It's not a numbers issue per se. Putting people into re-education camps to train them to abandon their heritage and integrate into your society is really, really BAD. But it's NOT remotely the same thing as putting them in gas chambers. Not even the same conversation.
Why do you focus only the the "re-education" part, but ignore the reports of torture, forced labor and being killed? Read the links, those atrocities are clearly laid out.
@vivify
Please understand, I am *not* siding with CCP here but it is true that there are Uighur terrorists, see China's 911
China blames Uighur separatists for knife attack at train station that leaves 33 people dead
https://www.foxnews.com/world/china-blames-uighur-separatists-for-knife-attack-at-train-station-that-leaves-33-people-dead
There have been several bloody terrorist attacks by the Uighurs besides this one.
*maybe* the Chinese are only extraditing terrorist suspects back to China. Food for thought.
@earl-of-trumps saidAs mentioned in the OP:
There have been several bloody terrorist attacks by the Uighurs besides this one.
*maybe* the Chinese are only extraditing terrorist suspects back to China. Food for thought.
https://www.nbcnews.com/news/world/chinese-government-hunting-uyghurs-world-help-surprising-countries-rcna24987
"Many of the Uyghurs in the database have been detained and sent back to China without being charged with a crime".