"His (Carter's) monitors conducted a quick count at polling sites and the results were "almost exactly the same as the results" provided earlier by the National Electoral Council, Carter said at a news conference."
"Before Carter's announcement, the opposition insisted the results were a fraud."
"We will count the votes again and we will formalize before the international bodies a very complete petition to audit all machines, to count every single paper ballot and to physically examine the elements that took part of this electoral process," said Henry Ramos Allup, the leader of the opposition coalition. "An incredible fraud has taken place."
http://edition.cnn.com/2004/WORLD/americas/08/16/venezuela.recall/index.html
The political battle continues.
Originally posted by ivanhoeQuitting never acheived anything.
The situation in Venezuela reminds me of the pre-Pinochet coup situation in Chile. If Shavez doesn't yield to the wishes of the United States he will be removed, one way or the other. If Shavez wants to serve his people he should recognise this unpleasant fact and explain to his people why certain things are not possible looking at the international situ ...[text shortened]... n he not be elected by his supporters without refering to Castro as some debater mentioned ?
There is security in numbers.
MÅ¥HÅRM
Originally posted by ivanhoeI knew they would.
"His (Carter's) monitors conducted a quick count at polling sites and the results were "almost exactly the same as the results" provided earlier by the National Electoral Council, Carter said at a news conference."
"Before Carter's announcement, the opposition insisted the results were a fraud."
"We will count the votes again and we will forma ...[text shortened]... /2004/WORLD/americas/08/16/venezuela.recall/index.html
The political battle continues.
They've been at it for the last 4 years or so, so no reason for them to give up now. I hope they all set sail to Florida in little rubber dingy's.
Originally posted by Mayharm
Quitting never acheived anything.
There is security in numbers.
MÅ¥HÅRM
He shouldn't quitt.
I was trying to make clear that he should not give the US government reasons to attack him politically or give them justifications to remove him and stage a coup to get rid of him. He should change his overall political stategy. At the moment he is practically asking the US to remove him. Shavez will have proved his point that the US government is an imperialistic one, but his people will suffer the consequenses.
Originally posted by ivanhoeThe only way Chavez could make the US government happy is by letting US rich guys take over Venzuela's oil and send the profits back to rich people in the "developed" countries. Since that would be a total repudiation of his populist philosophy, Chavez will always be unacceptable to the aristocrats here and in Venzuela but his policies seem to be popular with his people. Since it's their country, why should he change any policies just because the ex-frat boys who run our country want them changed?
He shouldn't quitt.
I was trying to make clear that he should not give the US government reasons to attack him politically or give them justifications to remove him and stage a coup to get rid of him. He should change his overall political stategy. At the moment he is practically asking the US to remove him. Shavez will have proved his point that the US government is an imperialistic one, but his people will suffer the consequenses.
Originally posted by MayharmOk Diatribus,
[b]"Are you serious? Castro helping all the people of his country get a better share of the wealth?"
Yep, in fact he's doing such a good job that those who want more than their "share of the wealth" are still fleeing the country.
Do some research, castro hasn't become one of the longest running and popular head of state in the world wi ...[text shortened]... r clueless diatribe, consider starting another thread before hijacking this one to discuss Cuba.[/b]
It was not I who "hijacked this thread". If you can read, and I assume that is a quality that most Jovians possess, you will notice from the posts preceding mine that it was not I who first introduced Castro into this discussion.
Shav initiated it with his quote from Mr. Weisbrot, which was followed with posts referencing Castro by Ivanhoe, yourself and redmike
So get off my butt...for some reason, you have taken it upon yourself to try and get my goat every chance you have. I suggest that if you want to go after me, you stop hiding behind this b.s. jupiter crap and identify yourself. Maybe then I could take you seriously.
If you think Cuba's so great why don't you move there from Jupiter and get back to me in 6 months, assuming you're not locked up in a hole somewhere. I'm sure Castro would appreciate your outspokenness. Dictators are notorious for their support of free speech.
Originally posted by no1marauder
The only way Chavez could make the US government happy is by letting US rich guys take over Venzuela's oil and send the profits back to rich people in the "developed" countries. Since that would be a total repudiation of his populist philosophy, Chavez will always be unacceptable to the aristocrats here and in Venzuela but his policies seem t ...[text shortened]... ould he change any policies just because the ex-frat boys who run our country want them changed?
If you read my posts carefully I do not advocate Shavez becoming a right winged politician.
Originally posted by ivanhoeMy tea leaf reading ability isn't one of my strong points; if you have a specific idea of how Chavez could possibly pacify the rich guys who run the US, I'd like to hear it (I believe that's impossible unless he wants to be a puppet). You don't have to read my post under a microscope to find out what I mean, I just say it. You might wanna give that a whirl in a debate forum (sarcasm; which is a useful tool when someone won't deal directly with the point at issue).
If you read my posts carefully I do not advocate Shavez becoming a right winged politician.
Originally posted by no1marauderFrom the BBC:
My tea leaf reading ability isn't one of my strong points; if you have a specific idea of how Chavez could possibly pacify the rich guys who run the US, I'd like to hear it (I believe that's impossible unless he wants to be a puppet). You don't have to read my post under a microscope to find out what I mean, I just say it. You might wanna gi ...[text shortened]... um (sarcasm; which is a useful tool when someone won't deal directly with the point at issue).
Mr Carter, who helped monitor Sunday's vote, said his team of observers had concluded there was a "clear difference in favour" of Mr Chavez.
The head of the Organization of American States, Cesar Gaviria, also said his monitors had not found "any element of fraud".
"Until elements of fraud emerge we are not going to put the results in doubt," he said.
But the US has declined to back Mr Chavez's apparent victory.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/3571350.stm
------------------
NOTHING except doing EXACTLY what the rich and the US wants is going to pacify the US and the middle-classes in Venuzuela. That's why he has to keep on as he is going. He is getting the poor fed, he is getting them medical treatment and he is redistributing a little wealth. Not even much, as I've stated before....it's not like he's Lennin or someone.
As for the US not backing a vote...even hinting that a vote could be fraudulous....
HOW DARE BUSH AND HIS THUGS EVEN SUGGEST SUCH A THING?????
They must have balls the size of coconuts! There is no other reason that these people could have the nerve!
I've never tasted such blatant hypocrisy in my whole bloody life.
I can already see him in his cowboy hat and his idiotic slurred voice: "Well....Mr. Carter Monihotrerd the election thingy in Venuzuelia, but that ain't good enough for me. If the rich there say it's fraudilililient then I'm sure they have justifictionisms for this and we will back any...blah blah blah."
The whole world has gone nuts and I'm the only sane person alive.
Originally posted by shavixmirIrony, definition 3b: incongruity between a siutation developed in a drama and the accompanying words or actions that is understood by the audience but not by the characters in the play.
As for the US not backing a vote...even hinting that a vote could be fraudulous....
HOW DARE BUSH AND HIS THUGS EVEN SUGGEST SUCH A THING?????
They must have balls the size of coconuts! There is no other reason that these people could have the nerve!
Here's the explanation: We're just watching a television drama; it's not real, or so I keep praying.
Nemesio
Originally posted by ivanhoeIn other words... you are asking him to quit.
He shouldn't quitt.
I was trying to make clear that he should not give the US government reasons to attack him politically or give them justifications to remove him and stage a coup to get rid of him. He should change his overall political stategy. At the moment he is practically asking the US to remove him. Shavez will have proved his point that the US government is an imperialistic one, but his people will suffer the consequenses.
If we asked bush to change his policies, give up the pro-life, anti-gay stance, he would not last one month politically if he did so. Additionally bush would then no longer be a republican (by not following the republican party line).
Same with Chavez...
His people will suffer more in the long term should he quit.
MÅ¥HÅRM
Originally posted by bekieke"for some reason, you have taken it upon yourself to try and get my goat every chance you have"
Ok Diatribus,
It was not I who "hijacked this thread". If you can read, and I assume that is a quality that most Jovians possess, you will notice from the posts preceding mine that it was not I who first introduced Castro into this discussion.
Shav initiated it with his quote from Mr. Weisbrot, which was followed with posts referencing Castro by Ivan ...[text shortened]... would appreciate your outspokenness. Dictators are notorious for their support of free speech.
Well, if you insist on painting a bullseye on your butt...
"It was not I who "hijacked this thread"."
No, but you have now.
Shav, was comparing Cuba and venezuala, perfectly and acceptably on topic. Your response to him had nothing to do with Venezuala...nothing wrong with that, you were asking a question (and we were doing nothing wrong by answering it for you).
I merely suggested that should you disagree with the response you recieved that a seperate thread be created for Cuba.
Apparently that's too complicated for you though...
As I said, if you want to know more about cuba, start another thread.
"I suggest that if you want to go after me, you stop hiding behind this b.s. jupiter crap and identify yourself. Maybe then I could take you seriously."
Well that would be unfair...after all I dont take you seriously. In any case, I'm not hiding anything...
MÅ¥HÅRM
Originally posted by no1marauder
My tea leaf reading ability isn't one of my strong points; if you have a specific idea of how Chavez could possibly pacify the rich guys who run the US, I'd like to hear it (I believe that's impossible unless he wants to be a puppet). You don't have to read my post under a microscope to find out what I mean, I just say it. You might wanna gi ...[text shortened]... um (sarcasm; which is a useful tool when someone won't deal directly with the point at issue).
I adressed the fact that Shavez is referring to Fidel Castro and his Cuba. He obviously seeks political support there. This is politically very unwise. He should seek the political support from the progressive European countries and use this in the publicity. I'm sure he would recieve what he wanted.
I adressed further the fact that moderation (! lol) and patience in his policies ànd diplomacies could improve his chances of survival. At the moment he is almost asking the US government to stage a coup to remove him from office. Is this in the interest of his people ? Not in my view.
Shavez is now presenting a policy of reconciliation to his opponents. I hope this will work. It depends on what he has to offer them.
Clear enough, no1 ?
Originally posted by ivanhoeYou really need to understand the history of that part of the world. In most of these countries, struggles for democracy are part of their recent history. Many of these have gone on to become fully-fledged socialist revolutions, and one one these is still ongoing.
I adressed the fact that Shavez is referring to Fidel Castro and his Cuba. He obviously seeks political support there. This is politically very unwise. He should seek the political support from the progressive European countries and use this in the publicity. I'm sure he would recieve what he wanted.
I adressed further the fact that moderation (! lol) ...[text shortened]... nts. I hope this will work. It depends on what he has to offer them.
Clear enough, no1 ?
What this means is that Castro isn't seen there as the monster the US sees. Locally, Castro is seen by many as a hero, and certainly a kindred spirit to those on the left. Apart from these ideological links, the simple fact is that Cuba helps. Someone else has pointed out the trade of doctors for oil, and there are many other examples - day-to-day, nuts-and-bolts help and support. Which they don't get from the US.
58% for an incumbent president, in the face of the the propaganda and threats from the opposition, is a fantastic victory.
2 edits
Originally posted by ivanhoeHe wouldn't get any support from europe...they may be progressive, but they aren't that altruistic. Unless you can convince me there would be some benefit (and little/no consequences) for them to do so, no european country is going to support Chavez (at leats not in a firm, public way. Tacit support is something else and not worth the paper it isn't printed on).
I adressed the fact that Shavez is referring to Fidel Castro and his Cuba. He obviously seeks political support there. This is politically very unwise. He should seek the political support from the progressive European countries and use ...[text shortened]... depends on what he has to offer them.
Clear enough, no1 ?
MÅ¥HÅRM