I just thought it might be enlightening to hear what the Founding Fathers have to say about such things as government and taxation. Just how far have we deviated from the spirit from which the Founders founded the US?
"Our Constitution was made only for a moral and religious people. It is wholly inadequate to the government of any other" John Adams.
"The foundation of our national policy will be laid in the pure and immutable principles of private morality,....the propitious smiles of Heaven can never be expected on a nation that disregards the eternal rules of order and right which Heaven itself has ordained." George Washington, First Inaugural, April 30 1789.
"Government is not reason; it is not eloquence. It is force. And force, like fire, is a dangerous servant and a fearful master." George Washington
"Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is argument of tyrants. It is the creed of slaves." William Pitt in the House of Commons 1783.
"A wise and frugal government, which shall restrain men from injuring one another, which shall leave them otherwise free to regulate their own pursuits of industry and improvement, and shall not take from the mouth of labor the bread it has earned. This is the sum of good government, and this is necessary to close the circle of our felicity." Thomas Jefferson, First Inaugural Address.
"I believe that banking institutions are more dangerous to our liberties than standing armies. Already they have raised up a moneyed aristocracy that has set the government at defiance. The issuing power should be taken from the banks and restored to the people, to whom it properly belongs." Thomas Jefferson
"If the American people ever follow private banks to control the issue of currency, first by inflation, then by deflation, the banks and corporations that will grow up around them will deprive the people of all property until their children wake up homeless on the continent their fathers conquered." Thomas Jeffereson
"You have rights antecedent to all earthly governments; rights that cannot be repealed or restrained by human laws; rights derived from the Great Legislator of the Universe" John Adams
"A generous parent would have said, 'If there must be trouble, let it be in my day, that my child may have peace." Thomas Paine
"We must no let our rulers load us with perpetual debt. We must make our selection between economy and liberty or profusion and servitude. If we run into such debts as that we must be taxed in our meat in our drink, in our necessities and comforts, in our labors and in our amusements, for our callings and our creeds...our people....must come to labor sixteen hours in the twenty four, give earnings of fifteen of these to the government for their debts and daily expenses; and the sixteen being insufficient to afford us bread, we must live.... We have not time to think, no means of calling the managers into account, but be glad to obtain subsistence by hiring ourselves to rivet their chains on the necks of our fellow suffers. Our landholders too...retaining indeed the title and stewardship of estates called theirs, but held really in trust for the treasury, must...be contented with penury, obscurity and exile...private fortunes are destroyed by public as well as by private extravagance." Thomas Jefferson
"This is the tendency of all human governments. A departure from principle becomes a precedent for a second; that second for a third; and so on, till the bulk of society is reduced to mere automations of misery, to have no sensibilities left but for sinning and suffering.... And the fore horse of this frightful team is public debt. Taxation follows that, and in it's train wretchedness and oppression". Thomas Jefferson.
"All the perplexities, confusion and distress in America arise not from defects in their Constitution or Confederation, nor from want of honor or virtue, so much as downright ignorance of the nature of coin, credit and circulation." John Adams.
"The money powers prey upon the nation in times of peace and conspire against it in times of adversity. It is more despotic than a monarchy, more insolent that autocracy, and more selfish than bureaucracy. It denounces as public enemies, all who question it's methods or throw light upon its crimes. I have two great enemies, the Southern Army in front of me and the Bankers in the rear. Of the two, the one at my rear is my greatest foe...corporations have been enthroned and an era of corruption in high places will follow, and the money powers of the country will endeavor to prolong it's reign by working upon the prejudices of the people until the wealthy is aggregated in the hands of the few, and the Republic destroyed." Abraham Lincoln.
Originally posted by whodeyVery impressive! I'm not sure what can be done about the situation you've described. I often wonder what the founding fathers would have changed in the constitution if they could have forseen things like our interconnected global banking system, the internet, supermarkets and agribusiness (would we still have the right to bear arms?) Our world is very different from the world of 1776. Your thoughts however, are well worth considering...😏
I just thought it might be enlightening to hear what the Founding Fathers have to say about such things as government and taxation. Just how far have we deviated from the spirit from which the Founders founded the US?
"Our Constitution was made only for a moral and religious people. It is wholly inadequate to the government of any other" John Adams.
...[text shortened]... e hands of the few, and the Republic destroyed." Abraham Lincoln.
Here are some more!!
"If ever this vast country is brought under a single government, it will be one of extensive corruption...and will become as venal and oppressive as the government from which we separated." Thomas Jefferson
"The natural progress of things if for liberty to yield and government to gain ground." Thomas Jefferson
Since the general civilization of mankind, I believe there are more instances of the abridgment of the freedom of the people by gradual and silent encroachments of those in power than by violent and sudden usurpation." James Madison
"They that can give up essential liberties to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty or safety." Ben Franklin
"If ye love wealth greater than liberty, the tranquility of servitude greater than the animating contest for freedom, go home from us in peace. We seek not your counsel, nor your arms. Crouch down and lick the hand that feeds you. May your chains set lightly upon you, and may prosperity forget that ye were our countrymen." Samuel Adams.
"The poor have little
Beggars none
The rich too much
Enough not one"
Ben Franklin
Originally posted by bill718So what would the Founding Fathers say about the government today? If they be appalled, which pretty much every one is today, perhaps they would say something like this:
Very impressive! I'm not sure what can be done about the situation you've described. I often wonder what the founding fathers would have changed in the constitution if they could have forseen things like our interconnected global banking system, the internet, supermarkets and agribusiness (would we still have the right to bear arms?) Our world is very different from the world of 1776. Your thoughts however, are well worth considering...😏
"God forbid we should ever be 20 years without a rebellion. The people cannot be all, and always well informed. The part which is wrong will be discontented, in proportion to the importance of the facts they misconceive. If they remain quiet under such misconceptions, it is lethargy, the forerunner of death to the public liberty.....And what country can preserve its liberties, if it's rulers are not warned from time to time, that this people preserve the spirit of resistance? Let them take arms. The remedy is to set them right as to the facts, pardon and pacify them. What signify a few lives lost in a century or two? The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time, with the blood of patriots and tyrants. It is its natural manure." Thomas Jefferson.
Originally posted by PinkFloydIf you ask me they are all interesting. The quotes show that the Founding Fathers had a healthy fear of the power of the government. After all, they came from an oppressive government so this is not surprising. In addition, they had a healthy fear of the banking industry and corporate structure and saw that it was to be feared more than a military action. And lastly, it shows the emphasis placed on morality with the powers that be as well as the masses in terms of the success of government. The wisdom and prophetic nature of these men is nothing short of astounding.
Lincoln quote was very interesting.
I would say that if the Founders had something to say to us today it would be to warn us of our ever expanding role of government as well as chastise us over the role that corporations/banks recently played in the demise of the US economy. My guess is that they would push for decentralization, however, today people probably view these ideas as outdated and unworkable in a world that is so interconnected and dependent on each other. Now we live in a world where corporations that are too big to fail will bring us all down with them if they fail no matter if we bail them out or not. But in hindsight, is this a wise set up? They would also be appalled at the secularization of society and the demise of religion and morality within the general culture.
Originally posted by whodeywhodey: They would also be appalled at the secularization of society
If you ask me they are all interesting. The quotes show that the Founding Fathers had a healthy fear of the power of the government. After all, they came from an oppressive government so this is not surprising. In addition, they had a healthy fear of the banking industry and corporate structure and saw that it was to be feared more than a military action. ...[text shortened]... he secularization of society and the demise of religion and morality within the general culture.
Yeah, the guy who wrote of the "wall of separation between church and state" would have a problem with the "secularization of society".
🙄
BTW, you do know that William Pitt wasn't a Founding Father?
Originally posted by no1marauderCreating a theocracy and saying that religion is beneficial to the morality of the society at large are two different things.
whodey: They would also be appalled at the secularization of society
Yeah, the guy who wrote of the "wall of separation between church and state" would have a problem with the "secularization of society".
🙄
BTW, you do know that William Pitt wasn't a Founding Father?
Originally posted by whodeyJohn Adams: “This would be the best of all possible worlds, if there were no religion in it”
Creating a theocracy and saying that religion is beneficial to the morality of the society at large are two different things.
This is, of course, a partial, misleading quote (like many of the ones you gave). The full quote and explanation of it is as follows:
Twenty times in the course of my late reading have I been on the point of breaking out, "This would be the best of all possible worlds, if there were no religion in it!!!" But in this exclamation I would have been as fanatical as Bryant or Cleverly. Without religion this world would be something not fit to be mentioned in polite company, I mean hell.
-- John Adams, quoted from Charles Francis Adams, ed, Works of John Adams (1856), vol. X, p. 254
John Adams is here describing to Thomas Jefferson what he sees as an emotion-based ejaculatory thought that keeps coming to him. This was not his reasoned opinion. Although John Adams often felt an urge to advocate atheism as a popular world view (because of the sheer abuses perpetrated by religious charlatans), he was of the firm and reasoned opinion (basically undisputed in his day) that religion is essential to the goal of keeping the masses in line.
http://www.positiveatheism.org/hist/quotes/adams.htm
I like this quote even though he was not a founding father.
"A centralized democracy may be as tyrannical as an absolute monarch; and if the vigor of the nation is to continue unimpaired, each individual, each family, each district, must preserve as far as possible its independence, it self-completeness, its powers and its privledge to manage its own affairs and think its own thoughts."
James Anthony Froude (1818-1894) (Author and historian)
Originally posted by no1marauderWhy then do you think the same man seems to hail the morality of religious people from his quotes I have provided and then turns on religion itself?
John Adams: “This would be the best of all possible worlds, if there were no religion in it”
Originally posted by whodeyActually his position was that religion was a good thing to keep the masses in line. Kinda like something Karl Marx said later.
Why then do you think the same man seems to hail the morality of religious people from his quotes I have provided and then turns on religion itself?
Originally posted by whodeyCompare the founding fathers version of America with the one we find today.
I just thought it might be enlightening to hear what the Founding Fathers have to say about such things as government and taxation. Just how far have we deviated from the spirit from which the Founders founded the US?
"Our Constitution was made only for a moral and religious people. It is wholly inadequate to the government of any other" John Adams.
...[text shortened]... e hands of the few, and the Republic destroyed." Abraham Lincoln.
Is it really so hard to understand why so many people around the world view what has become of the US as, "the Great Satan"?