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Debates Forum

Debates Forum

  1. Subscriber kmax87
    You've got Kevin
    21 Sep '15 22:54
    VW's malfeasance in using defeat technology to meet emissions regulations seriously dents their brand, but it highlights a much deeper intractable problem with fossil fuels. It's impossible to meet the clean air standards and fuel efficiency standards and expectations of adequate power simultaneously.
    If other manufacturers are found to have engaged in similar scams, will this help accelerate the death knell of fossil fuels in mass transport?
  2. 21 Sep '15 23:53
    Originally posted by kmax87
    VW's malfeasance in using defeat technology to meet emissions regulations seriously dents their brand, but it highlights a much deeper intractable problem with fossil fuels. It's impossible to meet the clean air standards and fuel efficiency standards and expectations of adequate power simultaneously.
    If other manufacturers are found to have engaged in similar scams, will this help accelerate the death knell of fossil fuels in mass transport?
    It's not a problem with fossil fuels that VW cheated. It's actually a problem with regulation that regulators can easily be fooled.
    But to answer you question, when the first company cheats it's news. If more cheat then the government will just loosen standards. We want to have automobiles and we want to say that we aren't polluting. But if can't easily do both, I think we'll sacrifice environmental standards.
  3. 22 Sep '15 13:06
    We'll all see this through the lens of our world views. People can and will be dishonest for any number of reasons. Somebody stood to gain something that was too much to pass up, that outweighed any perceived risk. Yes, regulation, but yes, sure and swift and serious enforcement. Did that happen in the great 2008 recession? No. Will it happen here? Maybe the marketplace will render some justice, if the right people are targeted. But innocent people will be collateral damage.
  4. 23 Sep '15 01:17 / 1 edit
    Originally posted by kmax87
    VW's malfeasance in using defeat technology to meet emissions regulations seriously dents their brand, but it highlights a much deeper intractable problem with fossil fuels. It's impossible to meet the clean air standards and fuel efficiency standards and expectations of adequate power simultaneously.
    If other manufacturers are found to have engaged in similar scams, will this help accelerate the death knell of fossil fuels in mass transport?
    If other manufacturers are found to have engaged in similar scams, will this help accelerate the death knell of fossil fuels in mass transport?

    Did you really mean "mass transit" as in buses, trains and planes, or were you referring to personal transportation vehicles?

    I believe that when the market dictates a desire for cleaner vehicles, government regulation will not be needed.

    Hybrids and electric cars already are making inroads into fossil fuel vehicles, but costs and reliability are still concerns.
  5. Subscriber kmax87
    You've got Kevin
    23 Sep '15 02:26
    Originally posted by normbenign
    [b]If other manufacturers are found to have engaged in similar scams, will this help accelerate the death knell of fossil fuels in mass transport?

    Did you really mean "mass transit" as in buses, trains and planes, or were you referring to personal transportation vehicles?

    I believe that when the market dictates a desire for cleaner vehicles, go ...[text shortened]... eady are making inroads into fossil fuel vehicles, but costs and reliability are still concerns.[/b]
    I meant personal transportation, though getting the heavier vehicles and bus fleets off diesel as they have been doing in some locations is a good thing. California's clean air legislation has done wonders with air quality that if left to market forces might not have changed.
    If we are at that tipping point where personal transport fuelled by fossil fuels can no longer adequately meet all of the expectations placed on them I would rather see them forced out to pasture than have environmental standards rolled back.
  6. Subscriber Wajoma
    Die Cheeseburger
    23 Sep '15 02:37
    Originally posted by kmax87
    I meant personal transportation, though getting the heavier vehicles and bus fleets off diesel as they have been doing in some locations is a good thing. California's clean air legislation has done wonders with air quality that if left to market forces might not have changed.
    If we are at that tipping point where personal transport fuelled by fossil fuels ca ...[text shortened]... hem I would rather see them forced out to pasture than have environmental standards rolled back.
    You don't even know what regulations they've breached. You're operating on the assumption that all regulation is good and right, anyone that goes outside it is bad and wrong.

    Some regulation is completely OTT.

    In poorer countries the regulation of California would cause transportation to grind to a halt, resulting in even more hunger and starvation than there already is.

    The caring left.
  7. Subscriber kmax87
    You've got Kevin
    23 Sep '15 03:25
    Originally posted by Wajoma
    You don't even know what regulations they've breached. You're operating on the assumption that all regulation is good and right, anyone that goes outside it is bad and wrong.

    Some regulation is completely OTT.

    In poorer countries the regulation of California would cause transportation to grind to a halt, resulting in even more hunger and starvation than there already is.

    The caring left.
    But we're not talking about poorer countries. Without the defeat technology, VW's polute many multiples of the standard, yet they claimed to be selling a clean diesel product. Other manufacturers meet the standards so why not they?

    And to use poorer countries as a justification for lowering standards, would you prefer the laissez faire approach of 3rd world nations to social dysfunction such as sexual slavery/rampant corruption at all levels of government and where the freedom to speak and object is crushed without a trace?
  8. Subscriber Wajoma
    Die Cheeseburger
    23 Sep '15 08:40
    Originally posted by kmax87
    ...would you prefer the laissez faire approach of 3rd world nations to social dysfunction such as sexual slavery/rampant corruption at all levels of government and where the freedom to speak and object is crushed without a trace?
    Ummm yeah that's just what I was saying

    Have fun.
  9. Subscriber kmax87
    You've got Kevin
    23 Sep '15 11:42
    Originally posted by Wajoma
    Ummm yeah that's just what I was saying

    Have fun.
    Thought as much.
  10. 23 Sep '15 17:16
    Originally posted by kmax87
    VW's malfeasance in using defeat technology to meet emissions regulations seriously dents their brand, but it highlights a much deeper intractable problem with fossil fuels. It's impossible to meet the clean air standards and fuel efficiency standards and expectations of adequate power simultaneously.
    If other manufacturers are found to have engaged in similar scams, will this help accelerate the death knell of fossil fuels in mass transport?
    It's not that they cannot meet the demands. They just do not want to meet the demands.
  11. 23 Sep '15 17:47
    Originally posted by kmax87
    I meant personal transportation, though getting the heavier vehicles and bus fleets off diesel as they have been doing in some locations is a good thing. California's clean air legislation has done wonders with air quality that if left to market forces might not have changed.
    If we are at that tipping point where personal transport fuelled by fossil fuels ca ...[text shortened]... hem I would rather see them forced out to pasture than have environmental standards rolled back.
    OK, now the rest of us know what you're talking about.

    California's regulations (re: clean air), have done lots of things, many of them unintended consequences. Gasoline pump prices are higher for everyone, and from what I see from afar, road congestion hasn't changed. Part of the cost of building California approved vehicles has bled over to cars destined for the rest of the country. Catalytic converters containing precious metals are a favorite target of thieves, and the typical result is that owners replace them with straight pipes, at a lower cost, and to deter further thefts. Near as I can tell they haven't done anything but enrich thieves.

    Left to their own initiatives, I believe car manufacturers would have found more effective, and more practical methods of reducing emissions, and ultimately other modes of generating the power.

    BTW, in and around my city, many fleet vehicles are burning natural gas, which is cleaner, and cheaper than gasoline. However, forcing all vehicles to use that, would be a nightmare installing the infrastructure, and what to do with the existing fleet of personally owned vehicles.
  12. 23 Sep '15 17:52
    Originally posted by Phranny
    It's not that they cannot meet the demands. They just do not want to meet the demands.
    There are costs to meet demands, and those costs are typically passed on to consumers.

    Also there remains the question of whether the demands are reasonable, that is will they accomplish the desired end. Is it right to make consumers pay for what they may doubt is an effective remedy, that happens to appeal to bureaucrats or legislators?

    You may argue that it is democratic, but should you be able to vote to spend my money?
  13. Subscriber kmax87
    You've got Kevin
    23 Sep '15 20:29
    Originally posted by normbenign
    There are costs to meet demands, and those costs are typically passed on to consumers.

    Also there remains the question of whether the demands are reasonable, that is will they accomplish the desired end. Is it right to make consumers pay for what they may doubt is an effective remedy, that happens to appeal to bureaucrats or legislators?

    You may argue that it is democratic, but should you be able to vote to spend my money?
    The question is would Californians have been happy with air quality like that seen in major Chinese cities. Remember the 2008 Olympics?